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Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 484
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:33 am
Post subject: Antenna experiment on UCR411 Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)
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To the Group:
Off and on it has been proposed to put the close mounted antennas on a
compact receiver at angles to the receiver to add some additional
diversity to the system. The idea was that the receiver antennas on a
small unit are too close together and that bending them 45 degrees
left and right would add some polarization diversity. We tried the
experiment both indoors and out with the idea that reflections indoors
would give us random polarization and the idea would work well; lack
of reflections out doors might not give us the improvement since the
signal from the body pack would be primarily vertical.
The criteria was the number of dropouts as the "talent" walked a
defined course three times each with the antennas vertical and then
angled. We did this indoors and out. Indoors was in our plant and
included a lot of through the walls transmission. Outdoors was line of
sight and required some pretty long walks. The talents body blocked
the antenna going out but did not coming back.
After all 12 walks were done, the results were very consistent. The
angled antennas were always worse! We had picked clear frequencies but
we changed them anyway and tried it again since this was not expected.
Same results. Vertical parallel antennas win out solidly against the
V arrangement. Unexpected but there it is.
Best Regards,
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Jan 08, 2008 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:33 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Dec 14, 2003 Posts: 1614
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:33 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:olcbr3tvh7ep6v920i8fgddqgnuncqh38b@4ax.com...
> The talents body blocked
> the antenna going out but did not coming back.
So they were wearing the belt packs clipped to their front side? >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 484
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:47 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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They wore them in the classic side position but I made them walk
sideways out and back which is why I could only get 24 walks out of
them.
Actually, they were front right.
LEF
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:55:22 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
<tomaras.RemoveThis@tomaras.com> wrote:
>
>"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:olcbr3tvh7ep6v920i8fgddqgnuncqh38b@4ax.com...
>
>> The talents body blocked
>> the antenna going out but did not coming back.
>
>
>So they were wearing the belt packs clipped to their front side?
> >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Dec 14, 2003 Posts: 1614
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:47 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iojbr3dr60lucsfing6q621gtb3m4kkhh9@4ax.com...
> They wore them in the classic side position but I made them walk
> sideways out and back which is why I could only get 24 walks out of
> them.
I figured they would walk as many times as they were instructed to walk if
they wanted to keep their jobs as RF emissions laboratory rats. I thought
the New Mexico chapter of PETA had observers at your test facility. The
stuff people get away with in the desert these days! >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 118
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 484
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Surprised the Hell out of me.
LarryF
Lectro
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:21:20 -0800 (PST), Philip Perkins
<spamiser.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>This was always my experience (2x vertical better than 90 degrees) but
>I never did testing as rigorous as your did. Good to know.
>
>Philip Perkins >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Jun 10, 2004 Posts: 979
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Feb 15, 2008 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Eureka! ATW-U100 vs UCR411. Head to Head, 10mW vs 100mW
Transmitters respectively; talent about 150'- 200' (maybe even 300')
out of sight line (range) walking up a hill towards me and camera.
When they crested to line of sight, the Audio-Technica locked in
first, everytime. Hmm, I said, that's odd?
Now, I know why. The UCR411 had the 90 degree antenae set up, while
the ATW's were looking skyward.
In no way a critique of Lectros. I own, and love 'em dearly. Just a
seemingly strange/ inexplicable occurance put to bed.
Thanks guys. >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 50
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:olcbr3tvh7ep6v920i8fgddqgnuncqh38b@4ax.com...
> To the Group:
> Off and on it has been proposed to put the close mounted antennas on a
> compact receiver at angles to the receiver to add some additional
> diversity to the system. The idea was that the receiver antennas on a
> small unit are too close together and that bending them 45 degrees
> left and right would add some polarization diversity.
Larry,
There is a theoretical result that dictates the spacing of the antennas
for maximum signal independence of the two antennas IF the path length is
random, but the polarization angle is maintained . The number is close to
0.7 wavelength. Spacing at this distance will provide maximum resistance to
path length induced fading.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511 >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Dec 05, 2007 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 15, 11:33 am, Larry Fisher <lectroson....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> To the Group:
> Off and on it has been proposed to put the close mounted antennas on a
> compact receiver at angles to the receiver to add some additional
> diversity to the system. The idea was that the receiver antennas on a
> small unit are too close together and that bending them 45 degrees
> left and right would add some polarization diversity. We tried the
> experiment both indoors and out with the idea that reflections indoors
> would give us random polarization and the idea would work well; lack
> of reflections out doors might not give us the improvement since the
> signal from the body pack would be primarily vertical.
>
> The criteria was the number of dropouts as the "talent" walked a
> defined course three times each with the antennas vertical and then
> angled. We did this indoors and out. Indoors was in our plant and
> included a lot of through the walls transmission. Outdoors was line of
> sight and required some pretty long walks. The talents body blocked
> the antenna going out but did not coming back.
>
> After all 12 walks were done, the results were very consistent. The
> angled antennas were always worse! We had picked clear frequencies but
> we changed them anyway and tried it again since this was not expected.
> Same results. Vertical parallel antennas win out solidly against the
> V arrangement. Unexpected but there it is.
> Best Regards,
> Larry Fisher
> Lectrosonics
Larry,
I have read here and other places that having one of the antennas at
90 degrees from the other, in indoor situations helps reception better
than both vertical. I came across this several years ago when I was
suffering from weird reception. So far it seems to work well. But
recently I have worked with several other mixers that have never heard
of that approach. They tried it without any improvement in their
minds. Have you done similar tests with this setup as you have with
both antennas at 45 degrees?
Mike >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: May 25, 2007 Posts: 22
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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hmm. when i use my audio's. i use one vertical and one right angle,
though when they are in the rk2 rack, i use both vertical. and with my
zaxcoms, i use both vertical. though this is mainly because this is
how the manufacturers intended them to be used. also the antennas on
the audio ltd's are much closer - about an inch than on the zaxcom and
lectro receivers. but not done any tests to see what configaration
works best .though i'll probably give it a go next time im doing
something on the edge of range >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 484
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rodney here will try the L pattern next week. Same people, same path.
LarryF
Lectro
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:38:02 -0800 (PST), audiofile
<audiofilesound.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Larry,
>
>I have read here and other places that having one of the antennas at
>90 degrees from the other, in indoor situations helps reception better
>than both vertical. I came across this several years ago when I was
>suffering from weird reception. So far it seems to work well. But
>recently I have worked with several other mixers that have never heard
>of that approach. They tried it without any improvement in their
>minds. Have you done similar tests with this setup as you have with
>both antennas at 45 degrees?
>
>Mike >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: Jul 06, 2006 Posts: 682
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:46 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:33:29 -0500, Larry Fisher wrote
(in article <olcbr3tvh7ep6v920i8fgddqgnuncqh38b RemoveThis @4ax.com>):
> To the Group:
> Off and on it has been proposed to put the close mounted antennas on a
> compact receiver at angles to the receiver to add some additional
> diversity to the system. The idea was that the receiver antennas on a
> small unit are too close together and that bending them 45 degrees
> left and right would add some polarization diversity. We tried the
> experiment both indoors and out with the idea that reflections indoors
> would give us random polarization and the idea would work well; lack
> of reflections out doors might not give us the improvement since the
> signal from the body pack would be primarily vertical.
>
> The criteria was the number of dropouts as the "talent" walked a
> defined course three times each with the antennas vertical and then
> angled. We did this indoors and out. Indoors was in our plant and
> included a lot of through the walls transmission. Outdoors was line of
> sight and required some pretty long walks. The talents body blocked
> the antenna going out but did not coming back.
>
> After all 12 walks were done, the results were very consistent. The
> angled antennas were always worse! We had picked clear frequencies but
> we changed them anyway and tried it again since this was not expected.
> Same results. Vertical parallel antennas win out solidly against the
> V arrangement. Unexpected but there it is.
> Best Regards,
> Larry Fisher
> Lectrosonics
Cool
What about one straight and one 90 degrees?
Is the transmitter case actually a proper electrical length for the
frequency?
Regards,
Ty Ford
--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 484
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:46 am
Post subject: Re: Antenna experiment on UCR411 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hi Ty,
It is a pretty decent counterpoise. We actually cut our antenna
lengths while on a dummy case with an RF choke on the feeding coax to
allow the system to appear as if it were in free space.
When the transmitter is on the body, the case couples hard to the
person and looks like a ground. A lot of RF is still absorbed from the
antenna however.
Best Regards,
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:46:27 -0500, Ty Ford <tyreeford DeleteThis @comcast.net>
wrote:
[snip]
>Is the transmitter case actually a proper electrical length for the
>frequency?
>
>Regards,
>
>Ty Ford >> Stay informed about: Antenna experiment on UCR411 |
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