Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human

In article <csh475$ph6$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Covenant" <covenant.DeleteThis@joelamb.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > Therefore, by Cov's own "rules of canon," we can't know that the
> > cocoon scene is depicting a further step in the alien's lifecycle.
>
> Yes we CAN cos it's ON the movie SCREEN !!!

No it isn't.

> Brett is CLEARLY becoming an egg!

No, it isn't clear. It is clear that his body is inside what could be called
egg-shaped. And even if we agree that he is turning into an egg, that doesn't
say anything conclusive about the alien life cycle. You need to take other
things into account than what we see on screen to conclude that.

--
Sandman[.net]
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

In article <m0fqqknlhrsq.c1nw2bjn6hph.dlg.TakeThisOut@40tude.net>,
Adam Cameron <adam_junk.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> - there are no "rules of canon". That's got to be one of the mosre
>>> stupid rationalisations I've heard coming out of Covenant's
>>> keyboard.
>>
>> Does he only do this when I'm around? Do I just bring out the worst
>> in him or does this happen all the time?
>
> Sandman brings it out, too.

Yes, it would seem that logic and reason does make him that way. :)

> Sometimes he seems pretty lucid, other times he's either quite a long
> way up his own self righteiousness (based on what: no idea), or just
> babbling incoherently (ie: like this thread).

Yes, I've sen him lucid as well. Can't remember when right now, but I remember
think "Hey, that's pretty intelligent coming from Cov".

--
Sandman[.net]
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:02:18 +1300, Adam Cameron
<adam_junk RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>> That's because you're an easy-going Kiwi. I'm an American. We like
>> to enforce our will on the rest of the world. ;-)
>
>Don't get me started...

Too bad Waldo isn't around. ;-)

>> You're so paranoid. We'll make a seppo out of you yet.
>
>Just gimme the green card and I'm all yours.

You mean you'd actually leave Middle Earth?

Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

<< On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:19:21 GMT, "ADWatts"
<adwatts RemoveThis @graphic-designer.com> wrote:

> Dallas and Brett are mutating into Eggs.


mutating is the wrong word, if you want to be specific, they were just being
eaten away by an organism that would grow the egg structure around them
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

"Keith Hazelwood" <unknown RemoveThis @unknown.net> wrote in message
news:o00qu01abipnaugu3j7b3opleh1dad9vds@4ax.com...
Sandman said:

> >> Not needed. The director has told us. End of story.

I replied:

> >Not. Fincher didn't even write the script. Nor did he even want his name
> >on the film. Furthermore, he refused to participate in the Quadrilogy. So
> >how does he have final say? He doesn't.

Keith Hazelwood commented:

> So what? He was the director. Does this mean the director doesn't
> have the final say any more?

Not when he or she wants to Alan Smithee their film. You then completely
give up those rights. (Most often because they feel they weren't going to be
given the "final say" anyway.)

> Shall we transfer "final say" to the producers instead? That would be
> David Giler and Walter Hill, who *wrote the script*.

You're really beginning to show your ignorance now. Alien3 is heavy
based upon the Vincent Ward script, was written by Larry Ferguson,
and then "fixed", "touched up", "finished" (choose a word, any word)
by those egomaniacs Giler/Hill. But yes, any one of them holds just as
much weight when talking about any so-called "intentions" during the
creative process.

Fincher is the one most responsible for what ends up *on the screen*,
but if you're talking about what ifs and maybes and should've beens,
then you throw a whole lot of people into the mix.

And not that I'm blaming Fincher at all. I *don't* blame him for wanting
to distance himself from the film. But it was *his* call.

Have a great day!

ADWatts

"I remember it well
The first time that I saw
Your head around the door
'Cause mine stopped working"

from "I Remember" by Damien Rice
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:09:23 GMT, "ADWatts"
<adwatts.RemoveThis@graphic-designer.com> wrote:

>> So what? He was the director. Does this mean the director doesn't
>> have the final say any more?
>
>Not when he or she wants to Alan Smithee their film. You then completely
>give up those rights. (Most often because they feel they weren't going to be
>given the "final say" anyway.)

But he was still credited as the director. Saying he relinquishes his
status is just an arbitrary rule you're making up, like Cov's "rules
of canon."

>> Shall we transfer "final say" to the producers instead? That would be
>> David Giler and Walter Hill, who *wrote the script*.
>
>You're really beginning to show your ignorance now. Alien3 is heavy
>based upon the Vincent Ward script, was written by Larry Ferguson,
>and then "fixed", "touched up", "finished" (choose a word, any word)
>by those egomaniacs Giler/Hill. But yes, any one of them holds just as
>much weight when talking about any so-called "intentions" during the
>creative process.

I knew all that, but I didn't think it was really worth mentioning
since the buck basically stops with Giler and Hill. Hell, Larry
Ferguson touched up John Fasano's draft, so it's not as if the script
was *his* original brainchild either.

You also failed to mention Rex Pickett, but you'll notice that I'm not
accusing you of ignorance.

>Fincher is the one most responsible for what ends up *on the screen*,
>but if you're talking about what ifs and maybes and should've beens,
>then you throw a whole lot of people into the mix.

I agree, but I'm not the one dismissing testimony by Lance Henriksen,
Alec Gillis and Tom Woodruff Jr. as irrelevant.

>And not that I'm blaming Fincher at all. I *don't* blame him for wanting
>to distance himself from the film. But it was *his* call.

You'll notice Alien 3 wasn't an Alan Smithee film, yes?

Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

<Keith Hazelwood clipped Sandman saying>:

>>> I've never heard anyone suggest that
>>> Dallas was being turned into an egg while he was -still alive

I supplied an answer and said:

> >So I'm not the only one.

Keith Hazelwood commented:

> Mass opinion isn't canon. In fact, I'll quote Cov here...

Where the hell did I mention "mass opinion"? I answered
Sandman with *one* other opinion.

For all I know, *no* one else here would agree. That would be
fine with me, because I never said one way or another whether
*I* believe it! I just provided two pictures which show an eerie
similarity. *On screen* "evidence" that they will become eggs.

Dallas might be turning into an egg. Or maybe it is just his knees.
Hmmmm. Or maybe, in the process of metamorphosis, appendages
are used/turned into the "flaps". Maybe how many "flaps" an egg has
will tell you how many arms and legs the original "material" had.

(Not that I believe the above. Just speculation. Haven't ever really
given it any thought.)

> "...they hold no morer [sic] weight that [sic] anyone else with more
> than a passing interest in the movies, arguments."

And he's right.

> >Believe whatever you want. I couldn't care less.

> I'll let you in on a little secret: I *do* believe that Brett is
> turning into an egg because a) I'm not blind to the obvious, b) I *do*
> accept what the script says and c) I don't have an agenda compelling
> me to oppose it.

Didn't say *you* didn't. It's Sandy's opinion I really couldn't care
less about. Unless you two are one and the same . . .

> The Anchorpoint Essays discovered a beautiful way of weaving the
> original lifecycle into the whole biology of the aliens that finally
> sold me on it. It's logical and scientific and I'm just wired that
> way.

Are you in love or something? ;-)

I couldn't care less about these "Anchorpoint Essays", either. Give
it up.

> The only reason I'm playing Devil's Advocate here is to demonstrate
> how frustrating it is for other people to use the same tactics I've
> been using when it comes to the Bishop II issue.

By all means, play away at being the Advocate. At least your replies
are mostly interesting.

Have a great day!

ADWatts

"I remember it well
The first time that I saw
Your head around the door
'Cause mine stopped working"

from "I Remember" by Damien Rice
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:00:37 GMT, "ADWatts"
<adwatts.RemoveThis@graphic-designer.com> wrote:

>> I'll let you in on a little secret: I *do* believe that Brett is
>> turning into an egg because a) I'm not blind to the obvious, b) I *do*
>> accept what the script says and c) I don't have an agenda compelling
>> me to oppose it.
>
>Didn't say *you* didn't. It's Sandy's opinion I really couldn't care
>less about. Unless you two are one and the same . . .

My bad, I thought you were replying to one of my posts. Nevermind.

>> The Anchorpoint Essays discovered a beautiful way of weaving the
>> original lifecycle into the whole biology of the aliens that finally
>> sold me on it. It's logical and scientific and I'm just wired that
>> way.
>
>Are you in love or something? ;-)
>
>I couldn't care less about these "Anchorpoint Essays", either. Give
>it up.

Give up what? I'm just explaining why I finally accepted the original
lifecycle. It doesn't really matter to me if you care about the
Anchorpoint Essays or not. It's your loss, IMO.

Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

Keith Hazelwood said:

> >> So what? He was the director. Does this mean the director doesn't
> >> have the final say any more?

I replied:

> >Not when he or she wants to Alan Smithee their film. You then completely
> >give up those rights. (Most often because they feel they weren't going to
be
> >given the "final say" anyway.)

Keith Hazelwood responded:

> But he was still credited as the director. Saying he relinquishes his
> status is just an arbitrary rule you're making up, like Cov's "rules
> of canon."

He did *not* want credit; continued below . . .

> >> Shall we transfer "final say" to the producers instead? That would be
> >> David Giler and Walter Hill, who *wrote the script*.

> >You're really beginning to show your ignorance now. Alien3 is heavy
> >based upon the Vincent Ward script, was written by Larry Ferguson,
> >and then "fixed", "touched up", "finished" (choose a word, any word)
> >by those egomaniacs Giler/Hill. But yes, any one of them holds just as
> >much weight when talking about any so-called "intentions" during the
> >creative process.

> I knew all that, but I didn't think it was really worth mentioning
> since the buck basically stops with Giler and Hill. Hell, Larry
> Ferguson touched up John Fasano's draft, so it's not as if the script
> was *his* original brainchild either.
>
> You also failed to mention Rex Pickett, but you'll notice that I'm not
> accusing you of ignorance.

You are absolutely right. And I apologize. I'm a bit testy this morning,
but it's no reason for bad behavior when you take the time to write
decent replies. I *am* sorry.

I have some respect for Walter Hill. I love The Warriors. But as a
"team", and with respect to their "meddling" with the Alien films, I
find their contributions, um . . . annoying.

I'd have to dig into my archive of scripts to see who was responsible
for implying that Bishop II is human on paper. But that still wouldn't
"prove" anything as far as what made it on film. *If* the "culprit" can
even be weeded out.

> >Fincher is the one most responsible for what ends up *on the screen*,
> >but if you're talking about what ifs and maybes and should've beens,
> >then you throw a whole lot of people into the mix.

> I agree, but I'm not the one dismissing testimony by Lance Henriksen,
> Alec Gillis and Tom Woodruff Jr. as irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. Interesting with regards to the background of making
A3. Insight, perhaps, into what might have been. But not all that
helpful in figuring out whether or not Bishop II is a liar. An actor or
a make-up artist can interprete things any way they like, but only
the original writer knows whether there was true deception in play
or not. Just because it was suppose to *look* like blood, doesn't
mean it was real blood. Doesn't mean it isn't real blood, either.

> >And not that I'm blaming Fincher at all. I *don't* blame him for wanting
> >to distance himself from the film. But it was *his* call.

> You'll notice Alien 3 wasn't an Alan Smithee film, yes?

Because the Director's Guild denied his application because they
were trying to phase out the practice.

Fincher absolutely did *NOT* want his name on Alien3, and to this
day (AFAIK) he *still* wants nothing to do with it.

Personally, I'd like to see him "mend the fences" and do what he can
to present the best possible version of Alien3 with what he has to
work with. Somehow I doubt that the Bishop II issue would be very
high on the list of "things to do". Even the SE, while much better than
the original theatrical release, is still a mess.

Probably *too* much of a mess for Fincher to care about.

But in the meantime, what we have is *not* Fincher's true vision. The
SE is closer, but Fincher never had a chance to put his final "stamp
of approval" on the film. (Besides the fact, of course, of what little
he had to work with, and the constant interference from Fox!)

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong. It would nice if Fincher
was a lurker and set the record *completely* straight! :-D

But that's the "story" I know and have heard/read.

Have a great day!

ADWatts

"I remember it well
The first time that I saw
Your head around the door
'Cause mine stopped working"

from "I Remember" by Damien Rice
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

I said:

> >I couldn't care less about these "Anchorpoint Essays", either. Give
> >it up.

Keith Hazelwood replied:

> Give up what? I'm just explaining why I finally accepted the original
> lifecycle. It doesn't really matter to me if you care about the
> Anchorpoint Essays or not. It's your loss, IMO.

That it's some kind of "Holy Alien Bible of Truth".

It's one person's opinion and speculation. Slightly interesting to
read, but nothing to cite as "true evidence" whether or not I
actually agree with it.

Now if it was written by, say, O'Bannon, Shusett & Giger -- *that*
would carry some weight because they were the major forces in
creating the alien and the lifecycle.

Fanboy fiction does not apply. There's a lot of it out there. Mostly
bad -- including mine! :-)

Have a great day!

ADWatts

"I remember it well
The first time that I saw
Your head around the door
'Cause mine stopped working"

from "I Remember" by Damien Rice
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

wmmvrrvrrmm mmrrvrrvmmw said:

> mutating is the wrong word, if you want to be specific, they were just
being
> eaten away by an organism that would grow the egg structure around them

Very, very true.

I'd prefer a word like metamorphosis.

You always have interesting thoughts and theories. What's your
take on the one still -- Dallas' knees or the beginning of Dallas
becoming an egg?

I'm still not sure myself. I just happened to suddenly have both
stills (Dallas and Kane with the egg) visible on my monitor at the
same time, and the similarity struck me. Probably, just coincidence.

Or is it . . . :-)

Have a great day!

ADWatts

"I remember it well
The first time that I saw
Your head around the door
'Cause mine stopped working"

from "I Remember" by Damien Rice
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

"Adam Cameron" <adam_junk.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2avkctkn63y.fgppabev18h0.dlg@40tude.net...
> > Adam...
> >
> > I'm interested in seeing where you think *my* opinion from everything
you
> > say above differs.
>
> Err..? I can't see where I alluded to your opinion one way or the other,
> really. I was responding to some stuff Keith said.

You didn;t....
I was just wondering if you thought it did.

;' )


> Or do you just think I should automatically disagree with everything you
> say? ;-)


Not at all.... Do you think I think that ??

;' ))))


--
Covenant
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human 

"ADWatts" <adwatts.TakeThisOut@graphic-designer.com> wrote in message
news:p5%Gd.12177$EG1.11281@attbi_s53...


> Not. Fincher didn't even write the script. Nor did he even want his name
> on the film. Furthermore, he refused to participate in the Quadrilogy. So
> how does he have final say? He doesn't.


Heh....

Now *I* should have thought of that !!!


--
Covenant
A Man Who Should Have Thought Of That !
 >> Stay informed about: Cast and crew of Alien 3 say Bishop II is human