"Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography)

Shush wrote:

>Constance Kuriyama wrote:

>>I think this makes more sense if one
>>sees it in context. There was a lot of
>>anti-Communist rhetoric vented in the
>>right-wing press in the thirties, forties,
>>and fifties. Chaplin being a contrarian
>>by nature, I wouldn't expect him to join
>>in the chorus, even if he did have some
>>doubts about Communist regimes.

>      But there was even more anti-Nazi
>rhetoric at the time, especially in the
>post-Kristallnacht era that gave rise to
>THE GREAT DICTATOR. Chaplin wasn't
>a contrarian about Nazism (to his credit),
>but he seemed willing to give the Soviets
>the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, you correctly point out that Chaplin
didn't question the anti-Nazi rhetoric
of the press, so why should he question
the anti-communist rhetoric?

Of course, Dr Kuriyama prides herself
on her factual precision, but can she
give us a list of the organs of the
"right wing press" during the 30s, 40s,
and 50s? The Washington Post maybe?
The New York Times perhaps?







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Richard Carnahan wrote:

>>The problem with you and the other
>>Chaplin idolaters and jihadists here
>>is that you maintain the childish
>>notion that the humanism in Chaplin's
>>art necessarily reflects a benevolent
>>dimension in the man himself.


>    Oh, well. And we were getting along
>so well. First you say CC's films reflect
>the man; then you say they don't.

They don't reflect the man, they reflect
his art. No one has ever been able
to demonstrate where art comes from
or what its true nature is.

Chaplin's talent is a mysterious
thing which even he didn't understand,
but the process of transformation of
the data of Chaplin's life into art is a form
of cinematic alchemy.

You want to convert the man into
a hero or a great man because he
made great films..I do not think
that is justified by the facts of
Chaplin's life.

>Make up your mind.

I did. You weren't following the
argument.


> And as far as being benevolent is
>concerned: you haven't exactly been a>
>steaming pile of benevolence over the
>years, have you, George?

Always the ad hominems. This is the
infamous amc "Chaplin Shuffle,"
wherein a criticism of the immortal
Chaplin is turned back on the critic---
as if Chaplin were a member of
this newsgroup.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

George Shelps wrote:

>
> >>Always the ad hominems. This is the
> >>infamous amc "Chaplin Shuffle,"
> >>wherein a criticism of the immortal
> >>Chaplin is turned back on the critic---
> >>as if Chaplin were a member of
> >>this newsgroup.
>
> > You are such a hypocrite, George. No
> >one slimes and shuffles more than you.
>
> Oh, I do it now, very true...because
> you've earned it. You, Totheroh, Kuriyama, and Moran. By practicing
> the Shuffle on me from the get-go.
>
Same old George. Nothing's ever your fault.

Richard Carnahan
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>
>> Productive discussion results in both parties learning something from the
>> exchange of information and ideas. When has that ever happened in a
>> "discussion" with George?
>
>
> Well, I have to give him some credit. One thing he constantly points
> out is that while Chaplin was fiercely opposed to right-wing
> totalitarianism, he was conspicuously quiet about the left-wing
> variety. It's true.
>
> George interprets that silence as support, which I think is a real
> stretch, but he does have a point about Chaplin's double standard.
>
>
> --Shush--

I think this makes more sense if one sees it in context. There was a
lot of anti-Communist rhetoric vented in the right-wing press in the
thirties, forties, and fifties. Chaplin being a contrarian by nature,
I wouldn't expect him to join in the chorus, even if he did have some
doubts about Communist regimes.

He didn't trust the press to report objectively on Russia, either, and
so perhaps he bought too readily into leftist apologetics, which might
have seemed like suppressed truth, or at least like a viable alternative
view.

There was a line in one draft if the _Dictator_ speech which explicitly
rejected all "isms," and I think that comes closest to the spirit of
Chaplin's attitude. He was leftist by inclination, but he wasn't an
ideologue or joiner.

Most comedians are loose canons by nature, because the essence of comedy
is liberation.

Connie K.



--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

shushfilmseznospam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (Shush) wrote:


>>>Oh-oh. Now we're fighting to make
>>>Iraq only "relatively" democratic?

>>Of course...do you expect it to be
>>a Jeffersonian democracy?

>      Well, yes, that's what Bush has been
>telling us his goal was. Are you saying
>he's been lying to us?

His goal was to give the Iraqis the basis
for setting up their own democracy, not
automatically one of Jeffersonian ideals.

>>>  And our troops won't get to go home
>>>eventually, their presence will simply
>>>become "reduced"?


>>I expect that we will main a base there
>>just as we did in Europe. I hope for it.

>      And if a "free and democratic Iraq" is
>against that, what then? Tell the Iraqis
>that our promises of self-determination
>were all a con?

The fact that we maintained bases
in Germany didn't prevent democracy
from flowering after WW2.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Richard Carnahan wrote:

>>Always the ad hominems. This is the
>>infamous amc "Chaplin Shuffle,"
>>wherein a criticism of the immortal
>>Chaplin is turned back on the critic---
>>as if Chaplin were a member of
>>this newsgroup.

>    You are such a hypocrite, George. No
>one slimes and shuffles more than you.

Oh, I do it now, very true...because
you've earned it. You, Totheroh, Kuriyama, and Moran. By practicing
the Shuffle on me from the get-go.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Connie writes:

> Do you think productive discussion can be conducted with
> someone whose arguments are based on gross and obvious
> distortion of evidence?

Of course not.

<snip>

> Productive discussion results in both parties learning something
> from the exchange of information and ideas. When has that ever
> happened in a "discussion" with George?

Exactly never. Like the Bourbons, he has learned nothing and forgotten
nothing.

Tom Moran
Ignoring George Shelps since 2004
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

George Shelps wrote:
> rfcsac627n.DeleteThis@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> >>>>Always the ad hominems. This is the
> >>>>infamous amc "Chaplin Shuffle,"
> >>>>wherein a criticism of the immortal
> >>>>Chaplin is turned back on the critic---
> >>>>as if Chaplin were a member of
> >>>>this newsgroup.
>
> >>>You are such a hypocrite, George. No
> >>>one slimes and shuffles more than you.
>
> >>Oh, I do it now, very true...because
> >>you've earned it. You, Totheroh,
> >>Kuriyama, and Moran. By practicing the
> >>Shuffle on me from the get-go.
>
> > Same old George. Nothing's ever your
> >fault.
>
> That remark won't stop me from continuing to respond to your gibes
> with the harshness they deserve.
>

I would expect nothing less.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Richard writes (to you-know-who):

> First you say CC's films reflect the man; then you
> say they don't. Make up your mind. And as far as
> being benevolent is concerned: you haven't exactly
> been a steaming pile of benevolence over the years,
> have you, George?

He's been a steaming pile of *something*, that's for sure.

Tom Moran
Ignoring George Shelps since 2004.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

rfcsac627n RemoveThis @aol.com wrote:


>>>>Always the ad hominems. This is the
>>>>infamous amc "Chaplin Shuffle,"
>>>>wherein a criticism of the immortal
>>>>Chaplin is turned back on the critic---
>>>>as if Chaplin were a member of
>>>>this newsgroup.
        
>>>You are such a hypocrite, George. No
>>>one slimes and shuffles more than you.

>>Oh, I do it now, very true...because
>>you've earned it. You, Totheroh,
>>Kuriyama, and Moran. By practicing the
>>Shuffle on me from the get-go.

>    Same old George. Nothing's ever your
>fault.

That remark won't stop me from continuing to respond to your gibes
with the harshness they deserve.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

rfcsac627n.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:


>>>>>You are such a hypocrite, George.
>>>>>No one slimes and shuffles more
>>>>>than you.

>>>>Oh, I do it now, very true...because
>>>>you've earned it. You, Totheroh,
>>>>Kuriyama, and Moran. By practicing
>>>>the Shuffle on me from the get-go.

>>>Same old George. Nothing's ever your
>>>fault.

>>That remark won't stop me from
>>continuing to respond to your gibes with
>>the harshness they deserve.
    

>I would expect nothing less.

And you'll get nothing less.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

George Shelps wrote:

> Shush wrote:
> >Oh-oh. Now we're fighting to make
> >Iraq only "relatively" democratic?
>
> Of course...do you expect it to be
> a Jeffersonian democracy?


> I expect that we will main a base there
> just as we did in Europe. I hope for it.
>
> > And if a "free and democratic Iraq" is
> >against that, what then?
>
> The fact that we maintained bases
> in Germany didn't prevent democracy
> from flowering after WW2.


Who's going to break the news to the Iraqis that they won't get to
be as "free" as we told them they'd be?

Oh, never mind. Al-Qaeda will.




--Shush--
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Shush wrote:

>>The fact that we maintained bases
>>in Germany didn't prevent democracy
>>from flowering after WW2.

>      Who's going to break the news to the
>Iraqis that they won't get to be as "free"
>as we told them they'd be?

>      Oh, never mind. Al-Qaeda will.

If they ask us to leave. we should comply,
but their security and freedom will be
enhanced by having a US base in Iraq,







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography)