"Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography)

do481.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:

>"Shush"
>(shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com)
>writes:


>>>Of course, Dr Kuriyama prides herself
>>>on her factual precision, but can she
>>>give us a list of the organs of the
>>>"right wing press" during the 30s, 40s,
>>>and 50s? The Washington Post
>>>maybe? The New York Times perhaps?

>>      I can give her a head start. SOCIAL
>>JUSTICE (late 1930s-early 1940s) was
>>extremely anti-communist. The
>>CHICAGO TRIBUNE was definitely a
>>right-wing paper, and most if not all of
>>the Hearst papers were archly
>>anti-communist from around 1935
>>onward.

>George knows very well that the Hearst
>Press, which included a LOT of papers,
>was vehemently right wing. The Los
>Angeles press in general was far from
>liberal.

Your argument was that Chaplin
discounted negative stories about
Soviet Russia because they appeared
in the "right wing press." The fact
that some of the press was right wing
does not disqualify the truth of those
stories, in toto, because there were
major news outlets that were not
right wing, including the NY Times
and the Washington Post.


>As for your question about anti-Nazi
>rhetoric, Chaplin knew from a variety of
>sources, including refugees he knew
>personally, what the Nazis were about.
>On the other hand, many of his personal
>acquaintences were pro-Soviet or at
>least leftist and tolerant.

"Leftist and tolerant?" Almost an
oxymoron!


> That was an
>entirely different matter. He could see a
>conflict between the hostility of much of
>the press and the opinions of people he
>knew and respected, some of whom, like
>Eisenstein, had actually experienced
>Soviet Russia.

And had been censored by Stalin.


>And as for evidence that he might have
>had doubts about Communist regimes,
>he did argue with Claire Sheridan in the
>1920s when she had just returned from a>visit to Russia. And according
to Jerry
>pstein, he was none too hospitable when
>some guests from Russia visited him in
>Switzerland and started praising his
>possessions. He said, in fact, "Get these
>damned Reds out of here before they
>steal something."

Hardly a public political comment.

>Sorry I can't provide a year by year
>account of his opinions, but I'd be willing
>to bet they were rarely unmixed.



Dr K's defense of Chaplin's quietude
on the subject of Soviet oppression
is quite lame. Stalin's rapaciousness
was clearly evident in the postwar
period to everyone but Stalinists.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>
>> And as for evidence that he might have had doubts about Communist regimes,
>> he did argue with Claire Sheridan in the 1920s when she had just returned
>> from a visit to Russia. And according to Jerry Epstein, he was none too
>> hospitable when some guests from Russia visited him in Switzerland and
>> started praising his possessions. He said, in fact, "Get these damned Reds
>> out of here before they steal something."
>
> That's the one I half-way remembered. What's the story about the
> Claire Sheridan argument, Connie? That one's a new one on me.
>
>
>
> --Shush--

Claire Sheridan wrote two books in which she discussed her acquaintance with
Chaplin, _My American Diary_, published in 1922, which she wrote shortly
after her return from Russia, and _The Naked Truth_, published in 1928.

The second book covers more ground, so the discussion of Chaplin is somewhat
condensed, but contains a few details that differ from the first one. In the
second all she says about Chaplin's politics is, "it was his contempt for
the leisured classes that had reputed him a socialist by people who knew
nothing about socialism" (268).

In _American Diary_ she elaborates: `he said, "Don't get lost on the path of
propaganda. Live your life of an artist . . . . He is not Bolshevik, nor
Communist, nor Revolutionary, as I had heard rumored. He is an individualist
with the artist's intolerance of stupidity, insincerity, and narrow
prejudice. . . . He has an almost feminine intuition about people, he knows
at once if they are sincere or not. Before the evening was over we had
discussed Lenin, Lloyd George, Carpentier, J.M. Barrie, and H.G. Wells. I
found that he had each person pretty well summed up"' (333-334). Of a later
incident she comments, `we lunched in a little town, where the proprietor
addressed Charlie as "brother." . . . I said I thought it was very attractive
as that one hardly needed a revolution to bring about comradship, in a
country where a waiter calls you "brother." Charlie was rather scornful about
the sentimentalism of my revolutionary ideals"'(343).

Unfortunatley she does not provide further details, but one definitely gets
the impression that Chaplin did not share Sheridan's "revolutionary ideals."

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Constance Kuriyama wrote:

> In _American Diary_ she elaborates: `he said, "Don't get lost on the path of
> propaganda. Live your life of an artist . . . . He is not Bolshevik, nor
> Communist, nor Revolutionary, as I had heard rumored. He is an individualist
> with the artist's intolerance of stupidity, insincerity, and narrow
> prejudice. . . .
> Of a later
> incident she comments, `we lunched in a little town, where the proprietor
> addressed Charlie as "brother." . . . I said I thought it was very attractive
> as that one hardly needed a revolution to bring about comradship, in a
> country where a waiter calls you "brother." Charlie was rather scornful about
> the sentimentalism of my revolutionary ideals"'(343).
>
> Unfortunatley she does not provide further details, but one definitely gets
> the impression that Chaplin did not share Sheridan's "revolutionary ideals."


I don't know what to think. I've got his 1921 SHADOWLAND interview
where he specifically praises Lenin, and there's a passage in MY
AUTOBIOGRAPHY where he recalls differing with H.G. Wells over Wells'
observation that life in the USSR was terrible.

I think I'm seeing a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing.




--Shush--
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

George Shelps wrote:
> Chaplin was both an elitist and one
> who scorned elites that he felt
> excluded from---mainly social elites.

How odd, then, that one doesn't get this impression from MY
AUTOBIOGRAPHY, which deals with Chaplin's social contacts with the
rich, famous and/or powerful more than it does with anything else.
Mighty few, if any, of these celebrities are characterized in a
negative way.



> The sense of class resentment that propelled these people to success
> remains with them even after they
> have become members of a financial
> elite. They can simultaneously
> be snobs and socialists. Such was
> CC.

I think if Chaplin was fixated on class resentments, the way you
portray him, that attitude would be hammered home in his autobiography.
But the opposite is true. The way he describes his life, he remains
continually delighted and flattered that accomplished people from all
walks of life respect him, and want to talk with him.

There are scads of photos, as far back as 1917-1918, showing Chaplin
meeting famous people, and he always has that same sort of thrilled
grin on his face. He reprinted a lot of these shots in the
autobiography and in MY LIFE IN PICTURES. Clearly, he loved the
attention of the very same people that *you* claim he regarded with a
resentful envy.



--Shush--
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

shushfilmseznospam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (Shush) wrote:

>Constance Kuriyama wrote:

>>In _American Diary_ she elaborates:
>>`he said, "Don´t get lost on the path of
>>propaganda. Live your life of an artist . .
>>. . He is not Bolshevik, nor Communist,
>>nor Revolutionary, as I had heard
>>rumored. He is an individualist with the
>>artist´s intolerance of stupidity,
>>insincerity, and narrow prejudice. . . .

>>Of a later
>>incident she comments, `we lunched in
>>a little town, where the proprietor
>>addressed Charlie as "brother." . . . I
>>said I thought it was very attractive as
>>that one hardly needed a revolution to
>>bring about comradship, in a country
>>where a waiter calls you "brother."
>>Charlie was rather scornful about the
>>sentimentalism of my revolutionary
>>ideals"´(343).

>>Unfortunatley she does not provide
>>further details, but one definitely gets
>>the impression that Chaplin did not
>>share Sheridan's "revolutionary ideals."

>      I don't know what to think. I've got
>his 1921 SHADOWLAND interview
>where he specifically praises Lenin, and
>there's a passage in MY
>AUTOBIOGRAPHY where he recalls
>differing with H.G. Wells over Wells'
>observation that life in the USSR was
>terrible.

>      I think I'm seeing a jigsaw puzzle
>with most of its pieces missing.

Chaplin was both an elitist and one
who scorned elites that he felt
excluded from---mainly social elites.

This is very typical of those on the
far left. It is not suprising to see
him scoff at Claire Sheridan's
"sentimentalism" about revolutionary
ideals and yet still support Leninism.

He simply regarded himself as
superior to such as Sheridan and
thus her articulation of revolutionary
ideals was beneath consideration.

This is quite common on the left,
where many Hollywood types and
business moguls (such as George
Soros) are still dedicated leftists
and socialists.

The sense of class resentment that propelled these people to success
remains with them even after they
have become members of a financial
elite. They can simultaneously
be snobs and socialists. Such was
CC.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

George Shelps wrote:

> Shush wrote:
> >The way he
> >describes his life, he remains continually
> >delighted and flattered that accomplished
> >people from all walks of life respect him,
> >and want to talk with him.
>
> True. He felt he belonged to this elite.
>
>
> > There are scads of photos, as far
> >back as 1917-1918, showing Chaplin
> >meeting famous people, and he always
> >has that same sort of thrilled grin on his
> >face.
>
> He was an actor.


First you agree that he was delighted to meet the elite, then you
suggest he was only acting. Which is it?

Never mind. I don't think your psychological profile of Chaplin will
convince me any more than it's convinced anybody else. Let's find
something else to argue over.



--Shush--
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

shushfilmseznospam RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Shush) wrote:


>>The sense of class resentment that
>>propelled these people to success
>>remains with them even after they
>>have become members of a financial
>>elite. They can simultaneously
>>be snobs and socialists. Such was
>>CC.

>      I think if Chaplin was fixated on
>class resentments, the way you portray
>him, that attitude would be hammered
>home in his autobiography.

Why? He wanted to sell books.


> But the opposite is true. The way he
>describes his life, he remains continually
>delighted and flattered that accomplished
>people from all walks of life respect him,
>and want to talk with him.

True. He felt he belonged to this elite.
He expressed his resentments through
his social views.


>      There are scads of photos, as far
>back as 1917-1918, showing Chaplin
>meeting famous people, and he always
>has that same sort of thrilled grin on his
>face. He reprinted a lot of these shots in
>the autobiography and in MY LIFE IN
>PICTURES. Clearly, he loved the
>attention of the very same people that
>*you* claim he regarded with a resentful
>envy.

He was an actor.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Constance Kuriyama wrote:

> Shush writes:
> > I don't know what to think. I've got his 1921 SHADOWLAND interview
> > where he specifically praises Lenin,
>
> Would you mind quoting that? There are many ways to see people like
> Lenin.


"While we are on the subject of Chaplin and his ideas, let us
mention one or two of them. Chaplin believes in Russia and its right to
work out its own political salvation; he believes that the rest of the
world has not only failed the cause of humanity in its meeting of the
Russian problem but has tried to crucify its leaders, and he believes
Lenine to be a really great man. 'Because,' says Chaplin, 'he trims his
sails and modifies his ideas to meet the changes of each day. Only a
great man could meet and overcome the problems met and overcome by
Lenine.'..."



> > I think I'm seeing a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing.

> If you had them all it might not help. As is quite clear from Sheridan's
> account, consistency was not one of Chaplin's salient traits.

This is true. He, um, trimmed his sails and modified his ideas quite
a bit over the years. And thanks for that Sheridan material; it was all
new to me, and to others I'm sure.




--Shush--
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

shushfilmseznospam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Shush) wrote:


>>>The way he
>>>describes his life, he remains
>>>continually delighted and flattered that
>>>accomplished people from all walks of
>>>life respect him, and want to talk with him.


>>True. He felt he belonged to this elite.

>>>            There are scads of photos, as
>>>far back as 1917-1918, showing
>>>Chaplin meeting famous people, and
>>>he always has that same sort of
>>>thrilled grin on his face.

>>He was an actor.

>      First you agree that he was delighted
>to meet the elite, then you suggest he
>was only acting. Which is it?

He took satisfaction at being accepted
as part of an elite but I doubt he was
"thrilled" as you say. That part was
an act. He was too arrogantly self-assured to be "thrilled."


>      Never mind. I don't think your
>psychological profile of Chaplin will
>convince me any more than it's
>convinced anybody else.

I can't imagine anyone on this group
ever being convinced.

> Let's find something else to argue over

Whatever you say..







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>
>> In _American Diary_ she elaborates: `he said, "Don't get lost on the path of
>> propaganda. Live your life of an artist . . . . He is not Bolshevik, nor
>> Communist, nor Revolutionary, as I had heard rumored. He is an individualist
>> with the artist's intolerance of stupidity, insincerity, and narrow
>> prejudice. . . .
>> Of a later
>> incident she comments, `we lunched in a little town, where the proprietor
>> addressed Charlie as "brother." . . . I said I thought it was very attractive
>> as that one hardly needed a revolution to bring about comradship, in a
>> country where a waiter calls you "brother." Charlie was rather scornful about
>> the sentimentalism of my revolutionary ideals"'(343).
>>
>> Unfortunatley she does not provide further details, but one definitely gets
>> the impression that Chaplin did not share Sheridan's "revolutionary ideals."
>
>
> I don't know what to think. I've got his 1921 SHADOWLAND interview
> where he specifically praises Lenin,

Would you mind quoting that? There are many ways to see people like
Lenin. Even Hitler loved dogs--and Eva.


> and there's a passage in MY
> AUTOBIOGRAPHY where he recalls differing with H.G. Wells over Wells'
> observation that life in the USSR was terrible.

Well, it wasn't terrible for *everybody*. For some segments of the population
it probably was an improvement over Czarist Russia.


> I think I'm seeing a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing.
>
>
>
>
> --Shush--

If you had them all it might not help. As is quite clear from Sheridan's
account, consistency was not one of Chaplin's salient traits.

There was a core of consistency in his personality which comes through
strongly in the films, but if he had a consistent and coherent belief
system, I've yet to discover what it was. You can place him roughly on
a spectrum of political leanings, but you can't pin him down. He's a
moving target.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>
>> Shush writes:
>> > I don't know what to think. I've got his 1921 SHADOWLAND interview
>> > where he specifically praises Lenin,
>>
>> Would you mind quoting that? There are many ways to see people like
>> Lenin.
>
>
> "While we are on the subject of Chaplin and his ideas, let us
> mention one or two of them. Chaplin believes in Russia and its right to
> work out its own political salvation; he believes that the rest of the
> world has not only failed the cause of humanity in its meeting of the
> Russian problem but has tried to crucify its leaders, and he believes
> Lenine to be a really great man. 'Because,' says Chaplin, 'he trims his
> sails and modifies his ideas to meet the changes of each day. Only a
> great man could meet and overcome the problems met and overcome by
> Lenine.'..."
>
>
>
>> > I think I'm seeing a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing.
>
>> If you had them all it might not help. As is quite clear from Sheridan's
>> account, consistency was not one of Chaplin's salient traits.
>
> This is true. He, um, trimmed his sails and modified his ideas quite
> a bit over the years. And thanks for that Sheridan material; it was all
> new to me, and to others I'm sure.
>
>
>
>
> --Shush--

I don't see anything very revealing about this, except that Chaplin had an
open mind about Russia and believed in letting its people determine their
own future.

My husband also thinks Lenin was a great man (though not necesarily a good
one in every respect), and he's no Communist.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Constance Kuriyama wrote:

>I don't see anything very revealing about
>this, except that Chaplin had an open
>mind about Russia and believed in
>letting its people determine their own
>future.

"There are none so blind....."

>My husband also thinks Lenin was a
>great man (though not necesarily a good
>one in every respect), and he's no >Communist.

Lenin had a great historical impact,
but so did Stalin and Hitler.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography) 

Constance Kuriyama wrote:

>My husband also thinks Lenin was a
>great man (though not necesarily a good
>one in every respect), and he's no
>Communist.

Looks like the Russian people are reconsidering Lenin's reputation a
bit,
according to a news article today.

CC'a hero's mummy may be removed
from the public tomb at the Kremlin
and buried.







++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis."
 >> Stay informed about: "Citizen Chaplin" (a definitive mini-psychobiography)