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Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 222
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:09 pm
Post subject: "Chaplin's Collaborators" Archived from groups: alt>movies>chaplin (more info?)
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Jack Spears wrote another piece on Chaplin for FILMS IN REVIEW,
headlined "Chaplin's Collaborators Were Of More Help To Him Than He Has
Ever Acknowledged" (January 1962). Here's an extract.
"It is perhaps significant that Chaplin's dependence upon capable
assistants was greatest during his ventures into drama-- A WOMAN OF
PARIS, MONSIEUR VERDOUX, LIMELIGHT-- a realm in which his talent was
uncertain. His assistants on his comedies, an area in which he felt
completely sure of himself, were, by and large, a court jesterate of
yes men who merely catered to his ego.
"Chaplin has always felt a need for an audience while at work in the
studio. He was curious to know how he looked and liked to try out gags
and story ideas on his assistants. As the years went by he became less
and less responsive to criticism, and suggestions that he received from
others with derision would sometimes reappear later as his own.
"Although Chaplin would be the last to admit it, his awareness of
his technical shortcomings prompted him to employ capable assistants.
After nearly a half-century of filmmaking he is still unlettered in the
mechanics of putting a motion picture together, and he pretends to be
contemptuous of what he calls 'Hollywood chi-chi' -- i.e., expressive
camera angles and lighting, unusual pictorial composition, continuity
in editing and cross-cutting. His knowledge of such directorial
techniques is virtually nil.
"... As a director Chaplin is inclined to overemphasize acting, even
to the exclusion of technical construction, as King Vidor has pointed
out. When he tries he can extract stunning performances from his
players.... The performances of Martha Raye and Marilyn Nash in
MONSIEUR VERDOUX are two of the few assets of that controversial film.
"Except for his ability to direct actors, Chaplin's directorial
talents are minimal. Content, not technique, is his forte, a fact which
many film students, who should know better, fail to recognize.
Chaplin's directorial shortcomings, it should be remembered, in no way
reflect on his own work in comedy, in which his social satire and
expression of the complexities in human character and human
relationship, have the quality of genius."
It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
may find amusing:
" 'I do not think Chaplin knows that a camera has more than one
lens,' Robert Florey says, and it's true the photography of Chaplin's
films has been distinguished only for clarity of focus. Chaplin's
cameraman, Rollie Totheroh, who worked exclusively for the comedian for
over forty years, beginning with HIS NEW JOB at Essaney in '15, showed
little if any improvement over the years."
--Shush--
(That's right, "Essaney") >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Shush wrote:
> Jack Spears wrote another piece on Chaplin for FILMS IN REVIEW,
> headlined "Chaplin's Collaborators Were Of More Help To Him Than He Has
> Ever Acknowledged" (January 1962). Here's an extract.
>
>
> "It is perhaps significant that Chaplin's dependence upon capable
> assistants was greatest during his ventures into drama-- A WOMAN OF
> PARIS, MONSIEUR VERDOUX, LIMELIGHT-- a realm in which his talent was
> uncertain. His assistants on his comedies, an area in which he felt
> completely sure of himself, were, by and large, a court jesterate of
> yes men who merely catered to his ego.
>
> "Chaplin has always felt a need for an audience while at work in the
> studio. He was curious to know how he looked and liked to try out gags
> and story ideas on his assistants. As the years went by he became less
> and less responsive to criticism, and suggestions that he received from
> others with derision would sometimes reappear later as his own.
>
> "Although Chaplin would be the last to admit it, his awareness of
> his technical shortcomings prompted him to employ capable assistants.
> After nearly a half-century of filmmaking he is still unlettered in the
> mechanics of putting a motion picture together, and he pretends to be
> contemptuous of what he calls 'Hollywood chi-chi' -- i.e., expressive
> camera angles and lighting, unusual pictorial composition, continuity
> in editing and cross-cutting. His knowledge of such directorial
> techniques is virtually nil.
>
> "... As a director Chaplin is inclined to overemphasize acting, even
> to the exclusion of technical construction, as King Vidor has pointed
> out. When he tries he can extract stunning performances from his
> players.... The performances of Martha Raye and Marilyn Nash in
> MONSIEUR VERDOUX are two of the few assets of that controversial film.
>
> "Except for his ability to direct actors, Chaplin's directorial
> talents are minimal. Content, not technique, is his forte, a fact which
> many film students, who should know better, fail to recognize.
> Chaplin's directorial shortcomings, it should be remembered, in no way
> reflect on his own work in comedy, in which his social satire and
> expression of the complexities in human character and human
> relationship, have the quality of genius."
>
>
> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
> may find amusing:
>
> " 'I do not think Chaplin knows that a camera has more than one
> lens,' Robert Florey says, and it's true the photography of Chaplin's
> films has been distinguished only for clarity of focus. Chaplin's
> cameraman, Rollie Totheroh, who worked exclusively for the comedian for
> over forty years, beginning with HIS NEW JOB at Essaney in '15, showed
> little if any improvement over the years."
Well, I'm not sure I find it all that "amusing," but given that film
(HNJ) as a baseline from which to measure his later achievments, how
could Rollie possibly be expected to show any improvement over what he
was able to bring to Chaplin's first Essanay film in Chicago. I
challenge ANYONE to point to even the SLIGHTEST hint of a flaw in the
work Rollie contributed to His New Job. ;-) >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Dec 22, 2004 Posts: 100
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Shush wrote:
<snip>
>
> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
> may find amusing:
>
Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
"associate directors".
Matt >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Aug 29, 2005 Posts: 49
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Thanks for posting this Shush. As much as I enjoy revisitng my
dog-eared copies of Films in Review, I find the only consistantly
worthwhile reading to be Wm K. Everson's Rediscovery columns. Articles
like the ones you've been posting amply demonstrate the sorry state of
film history scholarship in the 1960s. And this at a time when many of
the participants were still alive.
Rob Farr
www.slapsticon.org
July 20-23 >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Dec 22, 2004 Posts: 100
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:33 pm
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Constance Kuriyama wrote:
> "Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
> > Shush wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
> >> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
> >> may find amusing:
> >>
> >
> > Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
> > directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
> > were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
> > period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
> > directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
> > "associate directors".
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
> We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative business,
> and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
> Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
> the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
> assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for example.
>
> Connie K.
True. I don't doubt that STEAMBOAT BILL is Keaton all the way, or at
least mostly Keaton. Reisner's responsibilities on that film were
probably very similar to those on the Chaplin films he worked on. It is
interesting, though, that Reisner receives full and single directorial
credit on that film though, which he simply never would have on a
Chaplin film.
Matt >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 16, 2003 Posts: 671
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
> Shush wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
>> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
>> may find amusing:
>>
>
> Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
> directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
> were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
> period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
> directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
> "associate directors".
>
> Matt
>
We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative business,
and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for example.
Connie K. >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 4/5/06 6:33 PM, in article
1144279988.658254.34290.DeleteThis@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com, "Matt Barry"
<mbarry1.DeleteThis@towson.edu> wrote:
> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>> "Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
>>> Shush wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
>>>> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
>>>> may find amusing:
>>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
>>> directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
>>> were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
>>> period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
>>> directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
>>> "associate directors".
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>
>> We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative business,
>> and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
>> Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
>> the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
>> assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for example.
>>
>> Connie K.
>
> True. I don't doubt that STEAMBOAT BILL is Keaton all the way, or at
> least mostly Keaton. Reisner's responsibilities on that film were
> probably very similar to those on the Chaplin films he worked on. It is
> interesting, though, that Reisner receives full and single directorial
> credit on that film though, which he simply never would have on a
> Chaplin film.
>
>
> Matt
Keaton disliked having his name all over the credits, considering it
unneeded and egotistical. He'd even poked fun at people like Thomas Ince
doing this in "The Playhouse." As one can guess, this complicates figuring
out what Buster actually did to no end.
Harold Lloyd said he was once fooled by Buster's habit of tossing away his
credits. He'd hired away one of Buster's "directors" thinking he'd scored a
great coup, only to discover the guy he'd hired knew nothing about directing
at all...
DBP >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Dec 22, 2004 Posts: 100
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:59 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Zenk Jones wrote:
> On 4/5/06 6:33 PM, in article
> 1144279988.658254.34290.DeleteThis@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com, "Matt Barry"
> <mbarry1.DeleteThis@towson.edu> wrote:
>
> > Constance Kuriyama wrote:
> >> "Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
> >>> Shush wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
> >>>> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
> >>>> may find amusing:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
> >>> directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
> >>> were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
> >>> period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
> >>> directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
> >>> "associate directors".
> >>>
> >>> Matt
> >>>
> >>
> >> We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative business,
> >> and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
> >> Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
> >> the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
> >> assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for example.
> >>
> >> Connie K.
> >
> > True. I don't doubt that STEAMBOAT BILL is Keaton all the way, or at
> > least mostly Keaton. Reisner's responsibilities on that film were
> > probably very similar to those on the Chaplin films he worked on. It is
> > interesting, though, that Reisner receives full and single directorial
> > credit on that film though, which he simply never would have on a
> > Chaplin film.
> >
> >
> > Matt
>
> Keaton disliked having his name all over the credits, considering it
> unneeded and egotistical. He'd even poked fun at people like Thomas Ince
> doing this in "The Playhouse." As one can guess, this complicates figuring
> out what Buster actually did to no end.
>
> Harold Lloyd said he was once fooled by Buster's habit of tossing away his
> credits. He'd hired away one of Buster's "directors" thinking he'd scored a
> great coup, only to discover the guy he'd hired knew nothing about directing
> at all...
>
> DBP
I think it's important to remember things like this when appreciating
these silent comedies. In a day and age when every film must have an
"auteur" and a "film by" credit, its refreshing to actually see hugely
brilliant directors like Keaton and Lloyd who would casually toss aside
a director credit.
Watching these Harold Lloyd films especially, I've really begun to
appreciate his subtle skills as a director, and my opinion is that he
was, in fact, the most influential of the silent comedians in terms of
his filmmaking skills. This is not to detract in any way from the
skills of either Chaplin or Keaton, of course, both of whom are supreme
geniuses. But let me give an example to show why I say this. Keaton is
often lauded as a technical filmmaker of brilliance beyond measure,
which he is, of course. But I often find his gag sequences to be "stand
alone" scenes, often hitting the "pause" button on the narrative, so to
speak. This is most obvious in the movie theatre sequence of SHERLOCK
JR. In many ways, I see Keaton's films as heavily inspired by the trick
films of the turn of the century. Perhaps he saw alot of these on the
vaudeville circuit as a child and the style stuck in his mind. Of
course, his style was also influenced by Arbuckle, who specialized in
gags that could often be described as surreal.
Lloyd, on the other hand, blends gags and narrative so seamlessly, and
effortlessly, that the gag sequences tend to arise very naturally out
of the narrative. The chase in GIRL SHY was a breakthrough in film
editing. In fact, it could be said to be just as influential as the
montage editing of POTEMKIN the following year (but, of course, who
looks for those things in a silent comedy?) I think the editing of the
GIRL SHY chase is in fact even more brilliant in that it builds to an
actual climax, and serves a narrative purpose as well. The shooting of
the sequence, the actual techniques used in bringing it to the screen,
were borrowed for the chariot race in BEN-HUR the following year; the
idea of mounting the camera in the ground to film the vehicles charging
over it found its way directly into BEN-HUR.
I believe that critical trends have very much to do with the accepted
evaluations of these comedians' skills behind the camera. The critical
re-evaluations of the 1960s tended to praise Keaton to no end because
of the obvious visual brilliance of his films and the fact that he was
seen as a renegade artist who'd been rejected by Hollywood. Buster
himself dismissed this, and it's refreshing to see that he didn't take
all that nonsense seriously. Deep down, Keaton must have realized and
appreciated the comic gifts he'd been given, and the hard work he put
them to use on, and didn't feel the need to trumpet his own brilliance
like that (imagine how wonderful it must be to watch new people get
such pleasure out of work you did 40 years ago, most people should be
so lucky as to experience that). I don't think Chaplin's brilliant,
beautiful films even *needed* re-evaluation; their brilliance was
obvious to anyone who watched them, and Chaplin himself saw to it that
they were kept in re-release frequently enough so as not to be
neglected. Lloyd, on the other hand, seems not to have received the
same amount of attention.This is partly because his films weren't as
accessible to see, but also because of the ridiculous prejudice that
since he was well off and hadn't "suffered" like an artist should, then
he could be no real artist. If Lloyd had lost all his money, created
some sort of political or artistic controversy, then there would
probably be some hair-brained critics "reading" all sorts of things
into his films. This may sound ridiculous or even foolish, but check
out the first "Sight and Sound" poll sometime, and try to find a single
film by a Hollywood director who either hadn't been cast out from
Hollywood or involved in some sort of political controversy. That, and
he didn't spell it out clearly in the credits that he was the "auteur"
of his films. I guess he fooled the auteurists, because they couldn't
"see" who was the real driving force behind these films (and there is
certainly a similar theme to be found in Lloyd's work).
In a sense, I'm glad that Lloyd escaped the critical re-evaluations of
the late 1950s/early 60s, because we can approach the films with a
fresher viewpoint today. I also find myself overwhelmed by the
incredible directorial skills of this man. It would be like watching a
new DVD collection of some old Western films that hadn't been seen in
years, and suddenly realizing that the guy who directed them was the
equal in talent to John Ford.
Matt >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:51 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Matt Barry wrote:
>Lloyd, on the other hand, blends gags
>and narrative so seamlessly, and
>effortlessly, that the gag sequences tend
>to arise very naturally out of the narrative.
Yes, very true. This is where Lloyd surpasses Chaplin and Keaton. They
began with fantasy characters, and
the gags could be interpolated without
reference to a narrative. But Lloyd's
slapstick business, while just as
funny as Chaplin's or Keaton;s, flowed
as you state "seamlessly." >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 222
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:56 am
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Matt Barry wrote:
> Watching these Harold Lloyd films especially, I've really begun to
> appreciate his subtle skills as a director, and my opinion is that he
> was, in fact, the most influential of the silent comedians in terms of
> his filmmaking skills.
Well, I have to disagree with a lot of what you say here, Matt.
Lloyd oversaw the development of his films from GIRL SHY on, but he did
it from the position of producer, not director. If you're going to give
Lloyd credit for the directing work in his films, you might as well
erase the directors' names from the films of Sam Goldwyn and David O.
Selznick too. As hands-on, creative producers, they all had a great
deal of input into what went into the films, but it's a mistake to
confuse the roles of producer and director. If you want to make the
case that Lloyd has been unjustly overlooked as a producer, then I'm
with you on that.
The main reason why Lloyd's fame rests on his performances rather
than his filmmaking is because he took a very collaborative approach.
He worked on that basis while still at Roach, where ideas for concept
and execution were reached as a team and decided upon by the director,
with Roach having overall control. When Lloyd went independent, he
didn't become a Chaplin-style auteur, he stayed with the exact same
formula. The main difference was that he got to make final decisions
himself instead of deferring to Hal Roach.
Lloyd relied very heavily on key members of his production team,
chiefly Sam Taylor. When Taylor moved on after FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, Lloyd
turned to Ted Wilde for THE KID BROTHER. (And as good as KID BROTHER
is, don't forget that the entire story was swiped from Roach's Glenn
Tryon vehicle THE WHITE SHEEP.) Wilde saved the day with KID BROTHER
and SPEEDY, but then *he* moved on, and Lloyd was stuck. What resulted
was the horrendous WELCOME DANGER.
Before giving Lloyd too much credit as a creative genius, take a
look at his filmography and eliminate the films that Sam Taylor and Ted
Wilde worked on. What you're left with is WELCOME DANGER, FEET FIRST,
MOVIE CRAZY, THE MILKY WAY, PROFESSOR BEWARE, A GIRL A GUY AND A GOB
and MY FAVORITE SPY. That's not an awful body of work, but it's not
even in the same league as the Lloyd/Taylor/Wilde films.
Again, I'm not saying Lloyd was an untalented hack, I'm just saying
that his success depended upon the contributions of key creative
collaborators. Suzanne Lloyd and Jeffrey Vance would prefer you to
think of Lloyd as an auteur, and that's certainly the message they've
been putting out in the book, her interviews and the DVD collection. In
reality, Lloyd did have tremendous skills, but he needed help and he
knew it.
> The chase in GIRL SHY was a breakthrough in film
> editing. In fact, it could be said to be just as influential as the
> montage editing of POTEMKIN the following year (but, of course, who
> looks for those things in a silent comedy?) I think the editing of the
> GIRL SHY chase is in fact even more brilliant in that it builds to an
> actual climax, and serves a narrative purpose as well. The shooting of
> the sequence, the actual techniques used in bringing it to the screen,
> were borrowed for the chariot race in BEN-HUR the following year; the
> idea of mounting the camera in the ground to film the vehicles charging
> over it found its way directly into BEN-HUR.
Come on now, putting cameras in the ground was already being done in
serials, and there'd been a huge-scale chariot race in Fox's THE QUEEN
OF SHEBA (1921), but in case anyone needed help conceiving an exciting
chariot race for BEN-HUR, all they had to do was read the book.
The climax of GIRL SHY is terrific, but I don't see where the
breakthrough comes in. Story-wise, it's the same kind of last-minute
rescue that movies had been doing for 15 years, and comedy-wise it's
the same frenzy of action with sight gags that Sennett, Larry Semon and
Lloyd himself had been doing in film after film. It's definitely great
stuff, it's carefully put together and the new score really helps, but
it's not revolutionary.
--Shush-- >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 16, 2003 Posts: 671
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:56 pm
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Zenk Jones (zjones@zaux.com) writes:
> On 4/5/06 6:33 PM, in article
> 1144279988.658254.34290.RemoveThis@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com, "Matt Barry"
> <mbarry1.RemoveThis@towson.edu> wrote:
>
>> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>>> "Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
>>>> Shush wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
>>>>> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
>>>>> may find amusing:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
>>>> directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
>>>> were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
>>>> period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
>>>> directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
>>>> "associate directors".
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>
>>> We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative business,
>>> and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
>>> Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
>>> the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
>>> assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for example.
>>>
>>> Connie K.
>>
>> True. I don't doubt that STEAMBOAT BILL is Keaton all the way, or at
>> least mostly Keaton. Reisner's responsibilities on that film were
>> probably very similar to those on the Chaplin films he worked on. It is
>> interesting, though, that Reisner receives full and single directorial
>> credit on that film though, which he simply never would have on a
>> Chaplin film.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>
> Keaton disliked having his name all over the credits, considering it
> unneeded and egotistical. He'd even poked fun at people like Thomas Ince
> doing this in "The Playhouse." As one can guess, this complicates figuring
> out what Buster actually did to no end.
>
> Harold Lloyd said he was once fooled by Buster's habit of tossing away his
> credits. He'd hired away one of Buster's "directors" thinking he'd scored a
> great coup, only to discover the guy he'd hired knew nothing about directing
> at all...
>
> DBP
There's something to be said for taking full credit for directing your own
film when you ARE the director. The habit of credit swapping is well
established in film, but it sometimes obscures the actual creative process.
I'm inclined to think that the coherence of Lloyd's films is largely a
consequence of his defining his character and working out a formula, which
generally involves a spectacular chase sequence at the end. Any *competent*
director could be plugged into this format and serve the purpose well
enough, though the partnership between Lloyd, Fred Newmeyer, and Sam Taylor
was obviously significant. Nobody played so important a secondary role in
Chaplin's films as Newmeyer and Taylor did in Lloyd's.
My impression is that both Keaton and Lloyd relied more on teamwork than
Chaplin, even sharing some of the same teammates, and therefore felt
comfortable with spreading credits around.
Connie K. >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Apr 07, 2006 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 4/6/06 11:56 AM, in article e13h77$gg6$1@theodyn.ncf.ca, "Constance
Kuriyama" <do481.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> Zenk Jones (zjones@zaux.com) writes:
>> On 4/5/06 6:33 PM, in article
>> 1144279988.658254.34290.DeleteThis@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com, "Matt Barry"
>> <mbarry1.DeleteThis@towson.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>>>> "Matt Barry" (mbarry1@towson.edu) writes:
>>>>> Shush wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a long article that discusses Chaplin's various assistant
>>>>>> directors in some detail. Buried near the end is a tidbit that David T.
>>>>>> may find amusing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone ever commented on the fact that many of these "associate
>>>>> directors" as they were often called (Charles Reisner, Robert Florey)
>>>>> were usually full-fledged directors on other peoples' films of the same
>>>>> period? I've often wondered, watching the films of Harold Lloyd, if his
>>>>> directors such as Fred Newmeyer and Sam Taylor weren't more than
>>>>> "associate directors".
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'll never know for sure. Filmmaking is a profoundly collaborative
>>>> business,
>>>> and the director isn't always the key player in the process. But as for
>>>> Chaplin's films, they have a distinctive quality which doesn't change with
>>>> the assistant or associate director credits. The Chaplin films Reisner
>>>> assisted with have no strong similarities to _Ssteamboat Bill_, for
>>>> example.
>>>>
>>>> Connie K.
>>>
>>> True. I don't doubt that STEAMBOAT BILL is Keaton all the way, or at
>>> least mostly Keaton. Reisner's responsibilities on that film were
>>> probably very similar to those on the Chaplin films he worked on. It is
>>> interesting, though, that Reisner receives full and single directorial
>>> credit on that film though, which he simply never would have on a
>>> Chaplin film.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>> Keaton disliked having his name all over the credits, considering it
>> unneeded and egotistical. He'd even poked fun at people like Thomas Ince
>> doing this in "The Playhouse." As one can guess, this complicates figuring
>> out what Buster actually did to no end.
>>
>> Harold Lloyd said he was once fooled by Buster's habit of tossing away his
>> credits. He'd hired away one of Buster's "directors" thinking he'd scored a
>> great coup, only to discover the guy he'd hired knew nothing about directing
>> at all...
>>
>> DBP
>
> There's something to be said for taking full credit for directing your own
> film when you ARE the director. The habit of credit swapping is well
> established in film, but it sometimes obscures the actual creative process.
Agreed. It certainly works against Keaton, as it has to be explained that he
did this. On the other hand, I can understand Buster's dislike of being
presented as an "genius." Seeing the problems Chaplin was having to deal
with that may have moved him to that path. It is one thing to do ingenious
art. It is another to have a bunch of intellectuals EXPECTING one to do
ingenious art. That's part of the reason Buster detested the "genius" mantle
later on and pointed them towards Charlie instead. The other, of course, was
Charlie obviously was, and had accepted the baggage.
> I'm inclined to think that the coherence of Lloyd's films is largely a
> consequence of his defining his character and working out a formula, which
> generally involves a spectacular chase sequence at the end. Any *competent*
> director could be plugged into this format and serve the purpose well
> enough, though the partnership between Lloyd, Fred Newmeyer, and Sam Taylor
> was obviously significant. Nobody played so important a secondary role in
> Chaplin's films as Newmeyer and Taylor did in Lloyd's.
"Chaplin is about the character, Lloyd about the narrative, Keaton about the
gags." That's a very gross simplification, but its an indicator of each's
strongest suit. All were masters at all three.
> My impression is that both Keaton and Lloyd relied more on teamwork than
> Chaplin, even sharing some of the same teammates, and therefore felt
> comfortable with spreading credits around.
>
> Connie K.
Certainly Keaton had a working (baseball) team, while Lloyd had a small army
of people working for him -- and these people deserved their credits (abet
Keaton, and to a lesser degree Lloyd, were a bit too generous handing them
out).
The flipside of this is, had Chaplin used Keaton's or Lloyd's working
methods using supporting gag and tech people, Charlie could have created 10
or 15 silent comedy features, rather than the five he did.
DBP >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 16, 2003 Posts: 671
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:47 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Matt Barry wrote:
>
>> Watching these Harold Lloyd films especially, I've really begun to
>> appreciate his subtle skills as a director, and my opinion is that he
>> was, in fact, the most influential of the silent comedians in terms of
>> his filmmaking skills.
>
> Well, I have to disagree with a lot of what you say here, Matt.
> Lloyd oversaw the development of his films from GIRL SHY on, but he did
> it from the position of producer, not director. If you're going to give
> Lloyd credit for the directing work in his films, you might as well
> erase the directors' names from the films of Sam Goldwyn and David O.
> Selznick too. As hands-on, creative producers, they all had a great
> deal of input into what went into the films, but it's a mistake to
> confuse the roles of producer and director. If you want to make the
> case that Lloyd has been unjustly overlooked as a producer, then I'm
> with you on that.
>
> The main reason why Lloyd's fame rests on his performances rather
> than his filmmaking is because he took a very collaborative approach.
> He worked on that basis while still at Roach, where ideas for concept
> and execution were reached as a team and decided upon by the director,
> with Roach having overall control. When Lloyd went independent, he
> didn't become a Chaplin-style auteur, he stayed with the exact same
> formula. The main difference was that he got to make final decisions
> himself instead of deferring to Hal Roach.
>
> Lloyd relied very heavily on key members of his production team,
> chiefly Sam Taylor.
Taylor was definitely the most important, but Newmeyer directed _Grandma's
Boy_ and had a hand in everything through _The Freshman_. I credit Taylor
for the definite improvement in _Cat's Paw_ over the Bruckman films.
Wilde's films seem to me the handsomest visually.
> When Taylor moved on after FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, Lloyd
> turned to Ted Wilde for THE KID BROTHER. (And as good as KID BROTHER
> is, don't forget that the entire story was swiped from Roach's Glenn
> Tryon vehicle THE WHITE SHEEP.) Wilde saved the day with KID BROTHER
> and SPEEDY, but then *he* moved on,
To the next world, unfortunately, which makes it hard to assess his
contribution.
> and Lloyd was stuck. What resulted
> was the horrendous WELCOME DANGER.
>
> Before giving Lloyd too much credit as a creative genius, take a
> look at his filmography and eliminate the films that Sam Taylor and Ted
> Wilde worked on. What you're left with is WELCOME DANGER, FEET FIRST,
> MOVIE CRAZY, THE MILKY WAY, PROFESSOR BEWARE, A GIRL A GUY AND A GOB
> and MY FAVORITE SPY. That's not an awful body of work, but it's not
> even in the same league as the Lloyd/Taylor/Wilde films.
>
> Again, I'm not saying Lloyd was an untalented hack, I'm just saying
> that his success depended upon the contributions of key creative
> collaborators. Suzanne Lloyd and Jeffrey Vance would prefer you to
> think of Lloyd as an auteur, and that's certainly the message they've
> been putting out in the book, her interviews and the DVD collection. In
> reality, Lloyd did have tremendous skills, but he needed help and he
> knew it.
>
>
>> The chase in GIRL SHY was a breakthrough in film
>> editing. In fact, it could be said to be just as influential as the
>> montage editing of POTEMKIN the following year (but, of course, who
>> looks for those things in a silent comedy?) I think the editing of the
>> GIRL SHY chase is in fact even more brilliant in that it builds to an
>> actual climax, and serves a narrative purpose as well. The shooting of
>> the sequence, the actual techniques used in bringing it to the screen,
>> were borrowed for the chariot race in BEN-HUR the following year; the
>> idea of mounting the camera in the ground to film the vehicles charging
>> over it found its way directly into BEN-HUR.
>
> Come on now, putting cameras in the ground was already being done in
> serials, and there'd been a huge-scale chariot race in Fox's THE QUEEN
> OF SHEBA (1921), but in case anyone needed help conceiving an exciting
> chariot race for BEN-HUR, all they had to do was read the book.
>
> The climax of GIRL SHY is terrific, but I don't see where the
> breakthrough comes in. Story-wise, it's the same kind of last-minute
> rescue that movies had been doing for 15 years, and comedy-wise it's
> the same frenzy of action with sight gags that Sennett, Larry Semon and
> Lloyd himself had been doing in film after film. It's definitely great
> stuff, it's carefully put together and the new score really helps, but
> it's not revolutionary.>
>
> --Shush--
A very astute analysis. Thanks.
Connie K. >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:07 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Constance Kuriyama wrote:
>Shush wrote:
>>Lloyd relied very heavily on key
>>members of his production team,
>>chiefly Sam Taylor.
Lloyd was in front of the camera
almost continuously and he was
also the producer of the films. He
had to "rely" on his staff. Directing
can be "authorship" or it can be
as it is on the stage, a technical
function that serves the script and
the performers.
In Lloyd's case, it was the latter.
Lloyd was the true "author" of his
films. If you listen to his commentaries
on the DVD's, you can hear his
mastery of all the dimensions
of film-making.
>Taylor was definitely the most important,
>but Newmeyer directed _Grandma's
>Boy_ and had a hand in everything
>through _The Freshman_. I credit Taylor
>for the definite improvement in _Cat's
>Paw_ over the Bruckman films.
Even Lloyd thought THE CAT'S PAW
was a mistake. It's very telling that
you select one of his least typical
films to laud.
>>Again, I'm not saying Lloyd was an
>>untalented hack,
That's a relief!
>> I'm just saying that his success
>>depended upon the contributions of key
>>creative collaborators.
His "key" was Lloyd.
>> Suzanne Lloyd and Jeffrey Vance would
>>prefer you to think of Lloyd as an auteur,
>>and that's certainly the message they've
>>been putting out in the book, her
>>interviews and the DVD collection.
And the message is correct.
>> In reality, Lloyd did have tremendous
>>skills, but he needed help and he knew it.
All movies are collaborative at some
level. All film-makers "need help."
And Chaplin needed more help than he
was willing to ask for, >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:16 am
Post subject: Re: "Chaplin's Collaborators" [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Pearson wrote:
>The flipside of this is, had Chaplin used
>Keaton's or Lloyd's working methods
>using supporting gag and tech people,
>Charlie could have created 10 or 15
>silent comedy features, rather than the
>five he did.
Correct. And if he had had the technical
polish of a Lloyd, he would be the
incontestable master of the cinema
that many claim him to be.
Craftsmanship is an esthetic object, too. We take pleasure in the
elegance of a masterful cinematic style. It advances the cause of
artistic expression in the
cinema because other film-makers
can adopt and expand upon it. Griffith's
cross-cutting, for example, was a
seminal development in film expression
and was a major influence on Eisenstein. >> Stay informed about: "Chaplin's Collaborators" |
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