DEVA fader pack?

Blair Morris <technicaldirector DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<technicaldirector>

Blair,

Hopefully the Zaxcom boys can chime in with some updated information,
but in the meantime I'll let you know what I learned at NAB from Howy.
This is all from memory, so apologies if there are any inaccuracies.

The fader panel will consist of eight faders -- one per input. It
will be a small panel that attaches to the top of the display.

I know what you're thinking, but the fact of the matter seems to be
(Zaxcom or anyone else, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

A) The faders will all have relatively short throws;

B) The position of the faders is not one that's handy in most cart or
OTS setups I can think of for actively riding gain or performing a
mix;

C) The fader panel will only consist of faders, not trim control, EQ,
pads, limiters, phase selection, limiter controls, bus assignments,
slate and talkback mics, and all of the rest of the functions the
mixer traditionally carries out. Bus assignments can be controlled
from inside the Deva's sub-menu system, but you'll be hard pressed to
access that system while you're rolling and mixing and in a terrible
hurry.

My impression of the Deva fader panel is that its purpose is to
provide input level control, since the machine's prototype only
featured four input controls for eight inputs. As of last April there
was no prototype, although maybe Howy's churned one out by now in
between making changes to his stereo transmitter.

I understand that you are trying to build a cart without a mixer
between your preamps and your recorder, and I don' t want to be
discouraging, but FWIW I can't for the life of me figure out why you
don't want one there. In my opinion, your mixer is the single most
important component on your cart, and it will have the most overall
effect on the work that you do. I'm not suggesting that you scrap
your plan with the SoundWeb, only advising very strongly that you
think about putting a very high quality mixer in between your splitter
and your Deva.

Regards,

Noah Timan

(working email is noahtiman at earthlinkdotttnet)
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

Forgive me for repeating my previous post, but so much of what we use a
mixer for
has nothing to do with recording. A primary reason I use the Cameo is for
signal routing and separate multiple mixes for monitoring,
playback, video assist, return routing, to and from other recorders, etc,
etc., and the ability to make changes to all of the above quickly.

A fader/EQ panel may reduce the need of an external mixer to "minimal" with
regards to recording, but the importance of the other functions of a mixer
will remain maximal for doing all that what is expected of production mixers
these days.

Glen Trew



"Glenn Sanders" <gs DeleteThis @zaxcom.com> wrote in message
news:27b5dc17.0306221353.55dc1620@posting.google.com...
> The fader package will be available around September. I do not have a
> picture of it at this time. A picture will be available as we get
> closer to release.
>
>
> It is true that with this unit and a Deva 3,4, or 5 the need for an
> external mixer is minimal.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Glenn
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:00:41 GMT, Blair Morris
<technicaldirector RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

>It appears as if the need for an actual console may be minimal, based on
>what the new DEVA will do, and the fact that the fader pack will give
>one's finger someplace to rest.

The only ( b i g ) thing missing on the ( or a ) faderpack, is the eq.
( and this not only counts for a Deva )
If that can be implemented, one way or another, than the need for a
mixer is completely gone. ( i think... )

R








--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

In article <v6vbfv0itt2n8ogfl30ho4r3mua476js55.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
?obe?to <Lach.DeleteThis@Meeuwtjess.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:00:41 GMT, Blair Morris
> <technicaldirector.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >It appears as if the need for an actual console may be minimal, based on
> >what the new DEVA will do, and the fact that the fader pack will give
> >one's finger someplace to rest.
>
> The only ( b i g ) thing missing on the ( or a ) faderpack, is the eq.
> ( and this not only counts for a Deva )
> If that can be implemented, one way or another, than the need for a
> mixer is completely gone. ( i think... )
>
> R
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html

What with the many variety of inline (XLR) mic level filters around,
perhaps EQ could be taken care of. Of course I'm thinking about
primarily low end roll off. Shure and Shoeps come to mind right off the
top.

Is there really a need to EQ beyond bringing the bottom end under
control?......or is it used because it's there.

An insert capibility would also allow outboard EQ's to be used as well.

HMMMM.........

B.
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

®obe®to wrote:
>
> The only ( b i g ) thing missing on the ( or a ) faderpack, is the eq.
> ( and this not only counts for a Deva )
> If that can be implemented, one way or another, than the need for a
> mixer is completely gone. ( i think... )


What about aux sends? Perhaps more important than EQ in getting a
one-box solution. Seem the Deva V might have enough I/O ports to manage
this?
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:52:13 GMT, Blair Morris
<technicaldirector DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>What with the many variety of inline (XLR) mic level filters around,
>perhaps EQ could be taken care of. Of course I'm thinking about
>primarily low end roll off. Shure and Shoeps come to mind right off the
>top.

The trick would ( i think ) be that you use the inputs of any HD
recorder-with-a-fader-board-option, use the HP filters, Phase, gain,
Phantom, Pads, limiter that are there already, only the EQ needs to be
added.

Now, i'm not into building recorders, and/so my very rough guess would
be some built-in-DSP that takes care of this...The fader board only
transmits the Data, on the board itself you only need some rotary eq
buttons/knobs per channel ( no display needed ) .
( aren't these protools-control-panel-boards doing the same ? )

>Is there really a need to EQ beyond bringing the bottom end under
>control?......or is it used because it's there.

No way ( IMO ) i eq a lot, especially , for example, when you
combine/mix radios with a boom.

>An insert capibility would also allow outboard EQ's to be used as well.

But then the insert need to be on the recorders signal path. I rather
see a dsp-thing inside the recorder itself..
Just make let's say 3 Aux outputs, 2 XLR, and 1 (mini)jack, where you
can combine every input to, to solve the mix/output/routing problems
to video, script, directors IFB, boom.

>HMMMM.........

Indeed :-)

R







--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

Regarding using the processing power of a recorder for mixing, the primary
limitation I see is the lack of outputs. So much of what we use a mixer for
has nothing to do with recording, but is for signal routing for monitoring,
playback systems, video assist, returns for video assist playback routing,
etc, etc.

For many applications it might be better to install recording capabilities
into a digital mixer.

Glen Trew


"®obe®to" <Lach RemoveThis @Meeuwtjess.com> wrote in message
news:ru2cfvsk4d1nbgf6qtchsh3uf86s2ph1ki@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:52:13 GMT, Blair Morris
> <technicaldirector RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >What with the many variety of inline (XLR) mic level filters around,
> >perhaps EQ could be taken care of. Of course I'm thinking about
> >primarily low end roll off. Shure and Shoeps come to mind right off the
> >top.
>
> The trick would ( i think ) be that you use the inputs of any HD
> recorder-with-a-fader-board-option, use the HP filters, Phase, gain,
> Phantom, Pads, limiter that are there already, only the EQ needs to be
> added.
>
> Now, i'm not into building recorders, and/so my very rough guess would
> be some built-in-DSP that takes care of this...The fader board only
> transmits the Data, on the board itself you only need some rotary eq
> buttons/knobs per channel ( no display needed ) .
> ( aren't these protools-control-panel-boards doing the same ? )
>
> >Is there really a need to EQ beyond bringing the bottom end under
> >control?......or is it used because it's there.
>
> No way ( IMO ) i eq a lot, especially , for example, when you
> combine/mix radios with a boom.
>
> >An insert capibility would also allow outboard EQ's to be used as well.
>
> But then the insert need to be on the recorders signal path. I rather
> see a dsp-thing inside the recorder itself..
> Just make let's say 3 Aux outputs, 2 XLR, and 1 (mini)jack, where you
> can combine every input to, to solve the mix/output/routing problems
> to video, script, directors IFB, boom.
>
> >HMMMM.........
>
> Indeed :-)
>
> R
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 13:38:29 -0700, Kurt Albershardt <kurt.TakeThisOut@nv.net>
wrote:

>What about aux sends?

That can be done trough a separate output, or outputs on the HD rec
itself, i think. You con fig the routing by a PDA for example.
Disadvantage is that you cannot change the routing very fast like with
normal switches and buttons.

>Perhaps more important than EQ in getting a
>one-box solution. Seem the Deva V might have enough I/O ports to manage
>this?

Any HDrecorder that has more then 2 tracks would be good, i think.


R









--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

>No way ( IMO ) i eq a lot, especially , for example, when you
>combine/mix radios with a boom.
>

Not to stir up anything, but IMO, I only use a high pass ever, and only to
solve a noise problem that prevents a clean recording. I reserve anything else
for post, where they want a basic clean recording that gives them options to
work with. By EQing on set, I feel that that takes options away from the
editors. I put all my effort into finding the best mic placements, and getting
rid of sources of noise. Opinions? Feelings?
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:09:43 -0500, "Glen Trew" <glen RemoveThis @trewaudio.com>
wrote:

>Regarding using the processing power of a recorder for mixing, the primary
>limitation I see is the lack of outputs.
>So much of what we use a mixer for
>has nothing to do with recording, but is for signal routing for monitoring,
>playback systems, video assist, returns for video assist playback routing,
>etc, etc.

As i wrote, the routing for video assist can be done ( maybe, haven't
seen the new HD recorders ) inside the HD recorder itself. You only
move the routing stage from a mixer to a recorder..

>For many applications it might be better to install recording capabilities
>into a digital mixer.

But for budget reasons it would be a great option to see if you can do
it with a fader board.
As long as these faders have a good length & feel, why not ..

If a HD recorder has great mic & line inputs, plus all the input
filters, plus several Aux outputs that can be configured anyway you
like, i only need faders and a eq ( theoretically spoken )

R







--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

On 23 Jun 2003 06:19:51 GMT, stiletto2.RemoveThis@aol.com (Stiletto2) wrote:

>Not to stir up anything, but IMO, I only use a high pass ever, and only to
>solve a noise problem that prevents a clean recording. I reserve anything else
>for post, where they want a basic clean recording that gives them options to
>work with. By EQing on set, I feel that that takes options away from the
>editors. I put all my effort into finding the best mic placements, and getting
>rid of sources of noise. Opinions? Feelings?

Then just a fader board is good for you. Eq on location is not
something everyone *must* do...

Still see a lot of potential in these sorts of accessories.

R










--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/bananenland.html
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

In article <cd345c55.0306221407.6d3045c RemoveThis @posting.google.com>,
this_isnot_it RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Noah Timan) wrote:

> Blair Morris <technicaldirector RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:<technicaldirector>
>
> Blair,
>
> Hopefully the Zaxcom boys can chime in with some updated information,
> but in the meantime I'll let you know what I learned at NAB from Howy.
> This is all from memory, so apologies if there are any inaccuracies.
>
> The fader panel will consist of eight faders -- one per input. It
> will be a small panel that attaches to the top of the display.
>
> I know what you're thinking, but the fact of the matter seems to be
> (Zaxcom or anyone else, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
>
> A) The faders will all have relatively short throws;
>
> B) The position of the faders is not one that's handy in most cart or
> OTS setups I can think of for actively riding gain or performing a
> mix;
>
> C) The fader panel will only consist of faders, not trim control, EQ,
> pads, limiters, phase selection, limiter controls, bus assignments,
> slate and talkback mics, and all of the rest of the functions the
> mixer traditionally carries out. Bus assignments can be controlled
> from inside the Deva's sub-menu system, but you'll be hard pressed to
> access that system while you're rolling and mixing and in a terrible
> hurry.
>
> My impression of the Deva fader panel is that its purpose is to
> provide input level control, since the machine's prototype only
> featured four input controls for eight inputs. As of last April there
> was no prototype, although maybe Howy's churned one out by now in
> between making changes to his stereo transmitter.
>
> I understand that you are trying to build a cart without a mixer
> between your preamps and your recorder, and I don' t want to be
> discouraging, but FWIW I can't for the life of me figure out why you
> don't want one there. In my opinion, your mixer is the single most
> important component on your cart, and it will have the most overall
> effect on the work that you do. I'm not suggesting that you scrap
> your plan with the SoundWeb, only advising very strongly that you
> think about putting a very high quality mixer in between your splitter
> and your Deva.
>
> Regards,
>
> Noah Timan
>
> (working email is noahtiman at earthlinkdotttnet)

Hi Noah,

It's not that I'm trying to get rid of a mixing console. As I mentioned
in another post, I'm sitting behind a Yamaha PM1D these days. It's
powerful beyond words, but the actual control surface is really just a
big mouse. Now, I DID choose the Yamaha for purchase, but I realise more
and more, as it gets used more and more, that I could just as easily
mix a show from a monitor, and mouse.

If I was to do that, the first thing I would do is seek out an 8 fader
or so, fader board, to control level, and/or anything else you might
want to control, like.......compression, comp ratio, limiting, EQ,
.......it really doesn't matter, the faders are just soft controls for
digital functions.

So.......I am wondering if the DEVA is in posession of enough digital
OMMPH that many functions could be brought up onto the fader panel for
ease of operation. I'm also wondering if the AES/EBU in and out could
act as inserts for a digital EQ/digital whatever, perhaps SoundWeb.

I'm really just exploring options before a purchase. I have no
hesitation in purchasing a Cameo, or Cooper, if it can't work any other
way.

To be honest, I find the reasearch part of a purchase and project,
almost more fun that the actual purchase!

Thanks for all the tips, URL's, and answers.

Cheers,
Blair
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack? 

Blair Morris <technicaldirector RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<technicaldirector-F05AFF.18554724062003 RemoveThis @shawnews.gv.shawcable.net>...

> If I was to do that, the first thing I would do is seek out an 8 fader
> or so, fader board, to control level, and/or anything else you might
> want to control, like.......compression, comp ratio, limiting, EQ,
> ......it really doesn't matter, the faders are just soft controls for
> digital functions.

That's true in the case of the Yamaha, and maybe the Cameo too, but
having instant access to those soft controls is critical in production
mixing scenarios. I don't have enough experience with digitally
controlled consoles to say anything definitive on the subject, but it
always seemed to me that making adjustments with a mouse often
requires more than a split second to access and manipulate the
controls. While it is sometimes also true in live music mixing (as
you are doubtlessly aware) the reality of production mixing is that
lots of changes and alterations -- which can be radical changes on
occasion -- sometimes need to be made in a fraction of a second. Is
this possible with a mouse-based system? Remember, on feature films,
there is no soundcheck, seemingly as often as not no rehearsal, and
sometimes no idea what is actually going to happen, or an idea of what
is going to happen that gets completely changed once the cameras start
rolling. Because of this, it is essential to be able to make
adjustments immediately. Having faders and knobs in front of you
makes this possible. I don't know if it's possible with various
digital interfaces -- you tell me -- but my guess is that in some
cases this requires access to submenus and the like, which means by
the time you access the control, it's too late.

> So.......I am wondering if the DEVA is in posession of enough digital
> OMMPH that many functions could be brought up onto the fader panel for
> ease of operation. I'm also wondering if the AES/EBU in and out could
> act as inserts for a digital EQ/digital whatever, perhaps SoundWeb.

We'll see what comes out, and Howy or Glen will (hopefully) correct me
if I'm wrong, but my impression of the fader board was that it would
only feature one thing: faders. No other controls.

> I'm really just exploring options before a purchase. I have no
> hesitation in purchasing a Cameo, or Cooper, if it can't work any other
> way.
>
> To be honest, I find the reasearch part of a purchase and project,
> almost more fun that the actual purchase!

My best advice to you, if you haven't done so already, is to go out
and mix some projects on rented or borrowed gear before you buy
anything, and get a feel for what your needs are and what works for
you. I strongly believe actual hands-on experience will provide much
more illuminating and valuable information than any number of
meaningful discussions or theoretical analysis, and this will allow
you to make decisions you'll be happier with.

Regards,

Noah Timan

(working email is noahtiman at earthlinkdotttnet)
 >> Stay informed about: DEVA fader pack?