DSR 500 clipping at headphone out

My experience is the 442 returns clip/distort in several different
circumstances. I returned mine to SD to have this fixed, the loan 442 I had
whilst mine was being looked at also distorted on returns, and mine when it
was returned continued to distort on returns. I have also heard of this with
three other 442's. This is a 442 issue as far as I am concerned with
Digibeta 790's, HD 730's, etc. or even returning from a SD mixpre.

It's easy if somewhat comical to demonstrate the problem - hiss ie.
ssssssssssssssss fairly strongly into a mic (eg. 416) and switch between
direct and return and you'll hear the sound clean direct, and distorted on
return (with the return gain pot on the 442 at 2/3 or more). This is the one
serious problem I've had with a 442 and there doesn't seem to be an answer
to it.




"audiofile" <audiofilesound RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128790967.460172.211300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have typically used rca for pd 150 and the like. The mixer I filled
> in for never thought of that option so was lacking in the proper
> adapters and cables to make it happen. Lesson learned, still bring some
> gear to set when filling in using their gear. I'd expect that issue
> with those prosumer cameras, but not Sony.
>
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

use rca outs for monitoring .
the headphones amp can clip

--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
"audiofile" <audiofilesound.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128785374.949816.168700@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I did a job the other day with the DSR 500. Sending line level out of
> the 442 with tone @ -20dbFS. Limiters on 442 set to -4dbFS(+16db on
> 442). Metering with VU and PPM. Everytime the meter would read
> -8dbFS(+12db on 442), I would hear clipping. But not on the mixer side,
> only on the return. I trusted the 442 to not clip. What's the deal, is
> there limiting in the camera or is it the headphone amp? I was filling
> in for a mixer on this shoot and he experienced the same phenomena.
> Fortunately, they were live switching 3 cameras with firewire links and
> he was able to check the firewire signal, and it was clean. Which puts
> me at ease, but should I worry? Has anyone else experienced this?
>
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

Nick,

I have exactly the same issue with my 442. As you say the problem is
lessened when you turn down the gain on the return.
This this then leads to a large difference in levels when switching
from monitoring the mixer to the return, which irritates me no end
while working. Also, I tend to find the 790 doesn't like its headphone
level to be set higher than around 2 o'clock.

Also, I find that some 790 have much cleaner 5-pin returns than others.
I'm guessing this is due to some digibetas having their o/p limiters
switched off as Oleg describes. Only problem is, I haven't yet met a
790 owner who's even heard of this, let alone let me take a screwdriver
and open up his baby... :o)
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

"Nick50" <ntakethis out50.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rCg2f.125579$G8.2146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Thanks for the suggestion but it's not the way my snake is wired. I've
> investigated a range of possibilities and tried various wiring
> possibilities
> balance/unbalanced/one leg balanced etc. and have reached the conclusion
> that the return setup on my 442, the loan 442 I had whilst mine was
> returned
> (for this issue) and my 442 when it was returned to me have all had the
> same
> problem and I've heard of at least three others with reported return
> distortion..
>
> MixPre headphone out at about 1/4 gain in to return 'B' (about 2/3 of max
> gain) with 'sssssssssss' test on 416 - same distortion.
>
> To match the return gain from headphone out or 5 pin xlr out on 790 will
> give me distortion on sibilance as Milos pointed out and has experienced
> as
> well. It can be fine 75% of the time and then I get one speaker with a
> particular sibilance and it sounds like there is a serious problem until I
> remind myself it's probably just the 442 return or I listen to the return
> at
> a reduced return level which doesn't match the direct level.
>
> I must admit I'm puzzled why this has not been more of a reported issue
> with
> 442's but it's certainly an inconvenience and a dissapointment for me and
> I'd love to get rid of it (the distortion that is).

Just to continue with different possibilities.....what headphones are you
driving?
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

Hi Martin,

I'm not so sure. When I first started using the mixer, there were
moments when I became so concerned about the distortion I was hearing,
that I had certain parts played back with my headphones plugged
straight into the 790. Distortion gone.
(I also use HD25's)

-Milos
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

Sennheiser HD25's


"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras.DeleteThis@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:2bKdnZpHuOWdBNTeRVn-ow@comcast.com...
>
> "Nick50" <ntakethis out50.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:rCg2f.125579$G8.2146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > Thanks for the suggestion but it's not the way my snake is wired. I've
> > investigated a range of possibilities and tried various wiring
> > possibilities
> > balance/unbalanced/one leg balanced etc. and have reached the conclusion
> > that the return setup on my 442, the loan 442 I had whilst mine was
> > returned
> > (for this issue) and my 442 when it was returned to me have all had the
> > same
> > problem and I've heard of at least three others with reported return
> > distortion..
> >
> > MixPre headphone out at about 1/4 gain in to return 'B' (about 2/3 of
max
> > gain) with 'sssssssssss' test on 416 - same distortion.
> >
> > To match the return gain from headphone out or 5 pin xlr out on 790 will
> > give me distortion on sibilance as Milos pointed out and has experienced
> > as
> > well. It can be fine 75% of the time and then I get one speaker with a
> > particular sibilance and it sounds like there is a serious problem until
I
> > remind myself it's probably just the 442 return or I listen to the
return
> > at
> > a reduced return level which doesn't match the direct level.
> >
> > I must admit I'm puzzled why this has not been more of a reported issue
> > with
> > 442's but it's certainly an inconvenience and a dissapointment for me
and
> > I'd love to get rid of it (the distortion that is).
>
> Just to continue with different possibilities.....what headphones are you
> driving?
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

"Milos Momcilovic" <soundmilos DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128918185.431854.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Martin,
>
> I'm not so sure. When I first started using the mixer, there were
> moments when I became so concerned about the distortion I was hearing,
> that I had certain parts played back with my headphones plugged
> straight into the 790. Distortion gone.
> (I also use HD25's)
>
> -Milos

Are the HD25's inefficient compared to something like the Sony 7506's? Do
you see the headphone amp's clip light on the 442 when you are hearing this
distortion?
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

I'd almost guarantee that it's the Beta end, not the mixer.
I have similar problems with my Sony DMX-P01, and have had all parts of the
snake tested and retested.
--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com

"Nick50" <ntakethis out50 RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Buh2f.125644$G8.13157@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Sennheiser HD25's
>
>
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras RemoveThis @tomaras.com> wrote in message
> news:2bKdnZpHuOWdBNTeRVn-ow@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Nick50" <ntakethis out50 RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:rCg2f.125579$G8.2146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> > Thanks for the suggestion but it's not the way my snake is wired. I've
>> > investigated a range of possibilities and tried various wiring
>> > possibilities
>> > balance/unbalanced/one leg balanced etc. and have reached the
>> > conclusion
>> > that the return setup on my 442, the loan 442 I had whilst mine was
>> > returned
>> > (for this issue) and my 442 when it was returned to me have all had the
>> > same
>> > problem and I've heard of at least three others with reported return
>> > distortion..
>> >
>> > MixPre headphone out at about 1/4 gain in to return 'B' (about 2/3 of
> max
>> > gain) with 'sssssssssss' test on 416 - same distortion.
>> >
>> > To match the return gain from headphone out or 5 pin xlr out on 790
>> > will
>> > give me distortion on sibilance as Milos pointed out and has
>> > experienced
>> > as
>> > well. It can be fine 75% of the time and then I get one speaker with a
>> > particular sibilance and it sounds like there is a serious problem
>> > until
> I
>> > remind myself it's probably just the 442 return or I listen to the
> return
>> > at
>> > a reduced return level which doesn't match the direct level.
>> >
>> > I must admit I'm puzzled why this has not been more of a reported issue
>> > with
>> > 442's but it's certainly an inconvenience and a dissapointment for me
> and
>> > I'd love to get rid of it (the distortion that is).
>>
>> Just to continue with different possibilities.....what headphones are you
>> driving?
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

Thanks again but the headphone clip light is a long way from clipping.

Don't forget that listening direct/return at identical volume direct the
sound is clean, switch to return and distortion is clear - as I've said the
best way I've found to demonstrate this is making a 'sssssssssssss' sound
into a mic. in my case a 416 and its very clear the distortion on the return
if the return gain is at about 2/3 or more which it generally needs to be to
match levels direct/return from various Sony cameras - digi or HD.

I am convinced that there is something inadequate about returns on the 442's
I've used, I never had this problem at all with an SQN used in a variety of
identical circumstances.


"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras.DeleteThis@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:H7idnTKZ85iyk9feRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Milos Momcilovic" <soundmilos.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128918185.431854.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > I'm not so sure. When I first started using the mixer, there were
> > moments when I became so concerned about the distortion I was hearing,
> > that I had certain parts played back with my headphones plugged
> > straight into the 790. Distortion gone.
> > (I also use HD25's)
> >
> > -Milos
>
> Are the HD25's inefficient compared to something like the Sony 7506's? Do
> you see the headphone amp's clip light on the 442 when you are hearing
this
> distortion?
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

I'm with Nick.
I know of several other 442 owners who agree.
And no, the headphone clip light does not come on during this
distortion.

-Milos


Nick50 wrote:
> Thanks again but the headphone clip light is a long way from clipping.
>
> Don't forget that listening direct/return at identical volume direct the
> sound is clean, switch to return and distortion is clear - as I've said the
> best way I've found to demonstrate this is making a 'sssssssssssss' sound
> into a mic. in my case a 416 and its very clear the distortion on the return
> if the return gain is at about 2/3 or more which it generally needs to be to
> match levels direct/return from various Sony cameras - digi or HD.
>
> I am convinced that there is something inadequate about returns on the 442's
> I've used, I never had this problem at all with an SQN used in a variety of
> identical circumstances.
>
>
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras DeleteThis @tomaras.com> wrote in message
> news:H7idnTKZ85iyk9feRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Milos Momcilovic" <soundmilos DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1128918185.431854.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > > I'm not so sure. When I first started using the mixer, there were
> > > moments when I became so concerned about the distortion I was hearing,
> > > that I had certain parts played back with my headphones plugged
> > > straight into the 790. Distortion gone.
> > > (I also use HD25's)
> > >
> > > -Milos
> >
> > Are the HD25's inefficient compared to something like the Sony 7506's? Do
> > you see the headphone amp's clip light on the 442 when you are hearing
> this
> > distortion?
> >
> >
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

The clipping I heard was not the same as the "sssssssssssssss"
distorion.
I have heard the sibleance distortion on my 442 before also. And I have
my headphone at 9 o'clock. It doesn't happen everytime. I had mentioned
in earlier posts that I thought it was my Ultrasone headphones, but now
I am thinking it's the 442. I also have a newer model of 442. Is there
a chance that those never experiencing this have older models? Perhaps
something has changed with the software updates!

No complaints from post yet, so it must have been the headphone amps.
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

"Nick50" <ntakethis out50.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:XFq2f.125777$G8.2974@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Thanks again but the headphone clip light is a long way from clipping.
>
> Don't forget that listening direct/return at identical volume direct the
> sound is clean, switch to return and distortion is clear - as I've said
> the
> best way I've found to demonstrate this is making a 'sssssssssssss' sound
> into a mic. in my case a 416 and its very clear the distortion on the
> return
> if the return gain is at about 2/3 or more which it generally needs to be
> to
> match levels direct/return from various Sony cameras - digi or HD.
>
> I am convinced that there is something inadequate about returns on the
> 442's
> I've used, I never had this problem at all with an SQN used in a variety
> of
> identical circumstances.

So I worked a two hour interview today with a Sony 900 HD camera returning
from the 5 pin xlr into the multipin connector on the 442 for the A return.
I fed my Sound Devices 744t and returned via the 1/8" B camera return.
Source was a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 on one channel and an RF mic on the other. I
switched back and forth between mix, return A and return B for the entire
shoot and there was absolutely NO distortion on the returns. The Sony 900 on
the A return was a bit noisier and duller than the mix but the 744t return
was difficult to distinguish from the mix. So...I don't know what's
happening with your setup but the fact that you experienced distortion on
two different 442's leads me to believe that there is something about how
your returns are wired or how the cameras you work with have been set up or
maintained that is causing some anomaly. ??

Charlie
Seattle
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out 

I was working with the DSR 500, and have only heard this on that
camera. I am assuming you're talking to the other postees and the
"sssssss" effect.

Can I buy the camera pigtail that has the 5-pin out option for my
snake? or did you wire that yourself? Is that the cleanest stereo
signal out of the camera? Even better than RCA outs?(adapted of course)


mike
 >> Stay informed about: DSR 500 clipping at headphone out