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External
Since: Feb 03, 2006
Posts: 170
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(Msg. 91) Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>movies>chaplin (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> fwtep.DeleteThis@hotmailx.com (Fred)
> wrote:
>
> >>The correct term is used by Marty Hart
> >>on the Widescreen Museum website,
> >>and that term is "cropped widescreen."
> >>COUNTESS is, as I have been saying,
> >>not in a real widescreen process, but
> >>in a format merely cropped to look like
> >>that.... hence Hart's term.
>
> >George, no one asked what the process
> >was. The end result is what matters. And
> >guess what shape the screen is in?
>
> Well, I volunteered the answer based
> on Carnahan using the term "wide
> screen process." (see below)
>
> COUNTESS was indeed in a rectangular
> format, via a cropped wide screen, but not utilizing any "wide-screen
> process."
But it >is< a widescreen process. See below.
>
> >>With the exception of A COUNTESS
> >>FROM HONG KONG (1967), none of
> >>Chaplin's films were photographed in
> >>any wide-screen process.
From the Society of Camera Operators Magazine:
Almost overnight, other studios, especially those with a large backlog
of unreleased spherical films, panicked and began to look for other
ways to jump on the widescreen bandwagon. Many of these studios simply
chose to mask off the top and bottom of the 1.37:1 photographed image
during projection, creating the illusion of a wider image.
The resulting, and competing, aspect ratios used by the various studios
were 1.66:1 (Paramount, RKO, Republic), 1.75:1 (MGM, Disney, Warner
Bros.), and 1.85:1 (Universal, Columbia, Allied Artists).
Once they had released their inventory backlog, these studios began to
establish this type of >widescreen process< as a standard by
instructing their cinematographers to compose images so that no
important action would be lost during projection. By 1956, the studios
had decided unofficially upon 1.85:1 as the standard for this masked
widescreen method. |
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External
Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 92) Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:23:03 -0400, G-HELPS.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>
>fwtep@hotmailx.com (Fred)
>wrote:
>
>>>The correct term is used by Marty Hart
>>>on the Widescreen Museum website,
>>>and that term is "cropped widescreen."
>>>COUNTESS is, as I have been saying,
>>>not in a real widescreen process, but
>>>in a format merely cropped to look like
>>>that.... hence Hart's term.
>
>>George, no one asked what the process
>>was. The end result is what matters. And
>>guess what shape the screen is in?
>
>Well, I volunteered the answer based
>on Carnahan using the term "wide
>screen process." (see below)
>
>COUNTESS was indeed in a rectangular
>format, via a cropped wide screen, but not utilizing any "wide-screen
>process."
>
>>>With the exception of A COUNTESS
>>>FROM HONG KONG (1967), none of
>>>Chaplin's films were photographed in
>>>any wide-screen process.
Of course there was a process. The simple fact, and it is a 100%
absolute fact, is that Countess, as intended to be shown, is a
widescreen film, especially in relation to every one of Chaplin's
other films. It's really as simple as that. Is there a little bit
more to it than that? Maybe, but that does not in anyway make the
original answer wrong. |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 93) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Richard Carnahan wrote:
>But it >is< a widescreen process. See
>below.
>Once they had released their inventory
>backlog, these studios began to establish
>this type of >widescreen process< as a
>standard by instructing their
>cinematographers to compose images so
>that no important action would be lost
>during projection. By 1956, the studios
>had decided unofficially upon 1.85:1 as
>the standard for this masked widescreen
>method.
"Masked widescreen method," i.e
cropped widescreen, as I stated.
Not an authentic widescreen process as
defined by the Widescreen Museum, which requires a wide negative or an
anamorphic lens (in the case of
Ultra Panavision and Technirama,
both)
As I noted, the widescreen masking
process was instituted to conform
to the vertical dimensions imposed
by CinemaScope. If they hadn't done
this, the movie screen would have required a vertical mask as well
a horizontal one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 94) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fred wrote:
>that does not in anyway make the
>original answer wrong.
The original answer is misleading
because no one perceives 1.85 as
widescreen and the Widescreen Museum
(whose curator is an authority) spotlights only the authentic widescreen
processes.
(I can go on and on with this as long
as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
to disagree?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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External
Since: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 349
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(Msg. 95) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:18 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> Fred wrote:
>
> >that does not in anyway make the
> >original answer wrong.
>
> The original answer is misleading
> because no one perceives 1.85 as
> widescreen and the Widescreen Museum
> (whose curator is an authority) spotlights only the authentic widescreen
> processes.
>
> (I can go on and on with this as long
> as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
> to disagree?)
I'll be happy to continue to agree to disagree with ANYONE who claims
that "cropped widescreen" somehow isn't really widescreen (especially
one who aparently doesn't understand the physics and optics involved). >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 96) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dtotheroh.DeleteThis@aol.com (David Totheroh)
wrote:
>George Shelps wrote:
>>Fred wrote:
>>>that does not in anyway make the
>>>original answer wrong.
>>The original answer is misleading
>>because no one perceives 1.85 as
>>widescreen and the Widescreen
>>Museum (whose curator is an authority)
>>spotlights only the authentic widescreen
>>processes.
>>(I can go on and on with this as long
>>as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
>>to disagree?)
>I'll be happy to continue to agree to
>disagree with ANYONE who claims that
>"cropped widescreen" somehow isn't
>really widescreen (especially one who
>aparently doesn't understand the physics
>and optics involved).
The "physics and optics" amounted to
cropping a 1.37 frame to extract a
1.85 center rectangle and then projecting
that area larger. It was originally
a marketing expedient to harmonize
with the genuine wide screen processes
that emerged in the wake of Cinerama.
principally CinemaScope.
By the time COUNTESS was produced
cropped widescreen had become
the standard presentaiton format (1.85 as it is today) for 35mm and the
use of
the term "widescreen" to describe it
is misleading.
That said, true anamorphic widescreen is
almost a dead letter today, when most
2.35 films are actually cropped 2.35
sections of the full frame, compressed
for capture on a full 35mm frame and
then uncompressed via anamorphics
in the theatre.
This hybrid of cropping and anamorphics
is known as "Super 35."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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External
Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 97) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:07:27 -0400, G-HELPS RemoveThis @webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>
>>that does not in anyway make the
>>original answer wrong.
>
>The original answer is misleading
>because no one perceives 1.85 as
>widescreen and the Widescreen Museum
>(whose curator is an authority) spotlights only the authentic widescreen
>processes.
>
>(I can go on and on with this as long
>as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
>to disagree?)
No thanks, I'd like to continue. How can you say "no one perceives
1.85 as widescreen" when so far as I can see you're the ONLY one who
doesn't? As for the Widescreen Museum spotlighting only the authentic
widescreen processes, that's irellevant to the question asked--
they're talking about processes, not screen dimensions. The question
put to us was one of screen dimensions. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 98) Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 01:59:04 -0400, G-HELPS.RemoveThis@webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>Richard Carnahan wrote:
>
>>But it >is< a widescreen process. See
>>below.
>
>>Once they had released their inventory
>>backlog, these studios began to establish
>>this type of >widescreen process< as a
>>standard by instructing their
>>cinematographers to compose images so
>>that no important action would be lost
>>during projection. By 1956, the studios
>>had decided unofficially upon 1.85:1 as
>>the standard for this masked widescreen
>>method.
>
>"Masked widescreen method," i.e
>cropped widescreen, as I stated.
>
>Not an authentic widescreen process as
>defined by the Widescreen Museum, which requires a wide negative or an
>anamorphic lens (in the case of
>Ultra Panavision and Technirama,
>both)
>
>As I noted, the widescreen masking
>process was instituted to conform
>to the vertical dimensions imposed
>by CinemaScope. If they hadn't done
>this, the movie screen would have required a vertical mask as well
>a horizontal one.
So, to make a long story short, Countess was a widescreen film. It
was photographed to take in extra width and projected onto a noticably
rectangular screen. I'm sorry, but that's the definition of
widescreen.
Do you also refuse to say "sunset" or "sunrise" since in reality the
sun neither rises nor sets? >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 99) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fred wrote:
>>(I can go on and on with this as long
>>as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
>>to disagree?)
>No thanks, I'd like to continue. How can
>you say "no one perceives 1.85 as
>widescreen" when so far as I can see
>you're the ONLY one who doesn't?
Because it is the standard format that
most US movies are shown in and is not
therefore perceived as anything more
than a conventional presentation
format.
>As for the Widescreen Museum
>spotlighting only the authentic
>widescreen processes, that's irellevant to
I think not. It's an authoritative site for
the description of the widescreen phenomenon.
>the question asked-- they're talking about
>processes, not screen dimensions. The
>question put to us was one of screen
>dimensions.
But it was answered by Carnahan
using the term "wide screen process"
and therefore open to my commentary.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 100) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:13 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fred wrote:
>>As I noted, the widescreen masking
>>process was instituted to conform
>>to the vertical dimensions imposed
>>by CinemaScope. If they hadn't done
>>this, the movie screen would have
>>required a vertical mask as well a
>>horizontal one.
>So, to make a long story short, Countess
>was a widescreen film. It was
>photographed to take in extra width
The width would have had the same
content if it had been filmed in 1.37.
> and
>projected onto a noticably rectangular
>screen. I'm sorry, but that's the definition
>of widescreen.
That's a definition of a cropped frame.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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External
Since: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 44
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(Msg. 101) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hey, now we're getting to the root of things:
George Shelps wrote:
I can go on and on with this as long as you can. Wanna just stop and
agree to disagree?
Does this mean you think that getting the last word in means your view
will then somehow be 'right'? Is this why you're involved in so many
threads that go on for dozens and dozens of posts that stop adding
anything new after about post five? >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 102) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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robertjohnmoulton DeleteThis @gmail.com (Robert Moulton) wrote:
>Hey, now we're getting to the root of
>things:
>>I can go on and on with this as long as
>>you can. Wanna just stop and agree to
>>disagree?
>Does this mean you think that getting the
>last word in means your view will then
>somehow be 'right'?
No, just that it might be a gentlemanly
thing to stop debating when both sides
have firm convictions based on very
different premises.
> Is this why you're involved in so many
>threads that go on for dozens and
>dozens of posts that stop adding
>anything new after about post
>five?
It is untrue that I instigate or perpetuate
long-running threads, with the exception
of a few long exchanges I had with
Lloyd Fonvielle on the silent group.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 103) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:13:28 -0400, G-HELPS.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>
>>>As I noted, the widescreen masking
>>>process was instituted to conform
>>>to the vertical dimensions imposed
>>>by CinemaScope. If they hadn't done
>>>this, the movie screen would have
>>>required a vertical mask as well a
>>>horizontal one.
>
>>So, to make a long story short, Countess
>>was a widescreen film. It was
>>photographed to take in extra width
>
>The width would have had the same
>content if it had been filmed in 1.37.
That is not true George. Cinematographers frame differently for ALL
widescreen than they would for 4x3.
>> and
>>projected onto a noticably rectangular
>>screen. I'm sorry, but that's the definition
>>of widescreen.
>
>That's a definition of a cropped frame.
WIDE SCREEN. W-I-D-E S-C-R-E-E-N. What's the definition of "wide?"
What's the definition of "screen?" Now put them both together.
Widescreen is a description of the aspect ratio of a screen. It
doesn't say anything about how the image gets there. And strangely,
neither did the original poster. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 104) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:09:36 -0400, G-HELPS.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>
>Fred wrote:
>
>>>(I can go on and on with this as long
>>>as you can. Wanna just stop and agree
>>>to disagree?)
>
>>No thanks, I'd like to continue. How can
>>you say "no one perceives 1.85 as
>>widescreen" when so far as I can see
>>you're the ONLY one who doesn't?
>
>Because it is the standard format that
>most US movies are shown in and is not
>therefore perceived as anything more
>than a conventional presentation
>format.
Right, exactly. And the conventional presentation format is a
widescreen one.
>>As for the Widescreen Museum
>>spotlighting only the authentic
>>widescreen processes, that's irellevant to
>I think not. It's an authoritative site for
>the description of the widescreen phenomenon.
>
>
>>the question asked-- they're talking about
>>processes, not screen dimensions. The
>>question put to us was one of screen
>>dimensions.
>
>But it was answered by Carnahan
>using the term "wide screen process"
>and therefore open to my commentary.
And there IS a process to shooting widescreen this way. But still, if
that's your only gripe, then I'll give you that one and say that he
should have just said "widescreen." >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 141
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(Msg. 105) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:57:41 -0400, G-HELPS DeleteThis @webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>It is untrue that I instigate or perpetuate
>long-running threads, with the exception
>of a few long exchanges I had with
>Lloyd Fonvielle on the silent group.
And I tend to agree with you on those. :-) >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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