EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW

dtotheroh.DeleteThis@aol.com (David Totheroh)
wrote:

>>>It's hard to imagine any social evil
>>>which has had more consistently
>>>disastrous consequences for
>>>civilization over the years.

>>Religion.

>Amen to that.

Utopian political systems
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On Oct 27, 8:59 pm, G-HE... RemoveThis @webtv.net (George Shelps) wrote:
> dtothe... RemoveThis @aol.com (David Totheroh)
> wrote:
>
> >>>It's hard to imagine any social evil
> >>>which has had more consistently
> >>>disastrous consequences for
> >>>civilization over the years.
> >>Religion.
> >Amen to that.
>
> Utopian political systems

Like democracy? Bush is doing his best to wreck that.
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On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:09:41 -0700, Lloyd Fonvielle
<navigareNOSPAM.DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:

>Fred wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:50:38 -0700, Lloyd Fonvielle
>> <navigareNOSPAM.DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>>You need to take another look at "The Searchers". It's not racist, it's
>>>ABOUT racism -- one of the darkest portraits of racism in American cinema.
>>
>> It's just as hurtful and insulting to the couple of Native Americans I
>> know. "Look" (the Indian woman who is with them for a while) is the
>> butt of jokes, and "Scar", though given some token reasons for his
>> actions is still the bad guy.
>
>As I say, you and your Native American friends need to take a closer
>look at "The Searchers".

The Native Americans are presented in the typical stereotypes. The
fact that the Wayne character is presented as racist doesn't change
that. If I made a movie where all black people were jive-talking drug
users, but the hero of the film (a white guy of course) learned that
racism was wrong, don't you think black people would still be upset? I
sure do.

>Conversely, I don't personally know a
>> single black who's offended by the blackface in The Jazz Singer.
>
>But do they see the blackface tradition it's part of as generally benign?

Yes. Because compared to other racist things it's exceedingly minor.
And it actually opened up a lot of doors for black entertainers,
bringing black music to the foreground. Was it ever used to mock and
ridicule? I'm sure it was. But there was mockery and ridicule
without blackface too.
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Fred wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:09:41 -0700, Lloyd Fonvielle
> <navigareNOSPAM DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:

>>As I say, you and your Native American friends need to take a closer
>>look at "The Searchers".
>
> The Native Americans are presented in the typical stereotypes. The
> fact that the Wayne character is presented as racist doesn't change
> that.

This is a very superficial reading of the film, which is deeply
subversive of racial stereotypes and of American complacency about
racism. The subversion is indirect and between the lines -- but
everything that's important in "The Searchers" is indirect and between
the lines.



Mar de Cortes Baja

www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
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Fred wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:09:41 -0700, Lloyd Fonvielle
> <navigareNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Fred wrote:

>>Conversely, I don't personally know a
>>
>>>single black who's offended by the blackface in The Jazz Singer.
>>
>>But do they see the blackface tradition it's part of as generally benign?
>
> Yes. Because compared to other racist things it's exceedingly minor.
> And it actually opened up a lot of doors for black entertainers,
> bringing black music to the foreground. Was it ever used to mock and
> ridicule? I'm sure it was. But there was mockery and ridicule
> without blackface too.

I'm getting a little suspicious of these proxy blacks you've introduced
as authorities here. Are you really quoting things they've said to you,
or just expressing your ideas of what they think?

Perhaps we should stick to our own opinions or to opinions expressed by
blacks directly. I mean, I could say I've never met a black who didn't
find the blackface tradition mildly to extremely disturbing, but that
would just be pitting my proxies against your proxies.



Mar de Cortes Baja

www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
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On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 22:02:49 -0700, Lloyd Fonvielle
<navigareNOSPAM RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote:

>I'm getting a little suspicious of these proxy blacks you've introduced
>as authorities here. Are you really quoting things they've said to you,
>or just expressing your ideas of what they think?
>
>Perhaps we should stick to our own opinions or to opinions expressed by
>blacks directly. I mean, I could say I've never met a black who didn't
>find the blackface tradition mildly to extremely disturbing, but that
>would just be pitting my proxies against your proxies.

Those weren't direct quotes, but rather a paraphrasing of things
they've said over the years.

But OK, if you want to drop the discussion of others then you should
drop the whole thing, because your whole point so far was that more
should have been said about the race issue on the DVD because of the
offense it is towards blacks.
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Fred wrote:

> OK, if you want to drop the discussion of others then you should
> drop the whole thing, because your whole point so far was that more
> should have been said about the race issue on the DVD because of the
> offense it is towards blacks.

Racism is an offense towards everyone and should be the concern of everyone.



Mar de Cortes Baja

www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
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On Oct 29, 1:06 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS... RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote:
> Fred wrote:
> > OK, if you want to drop the discussion of others then you should
> > drop the whole thing, because your whole point so far was that more
> > should have been said about the race issue on the DVD because of the
> > offense it is towards blacks.
>
> Racism is an offense towards everyone and should be the concern of everyone.

OK, fair enough. But in the context of minstrelsy at least, have the
historic integrity to give credit where credit is due. Acknowledge
that the minstrel personna was initially a black created and very
sharp ingenious response to racism before it became a tool of that
same racism as used/coopted by whites who were (also?) often ignorant
of the less superficial, more subversive significance of that personna.
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David Totheroh wrote:

> On Oct 29, 1:06 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS... RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote:

>>Racism is an offense towards everyone and should be the concern of everyone.
>
> OK, fair enough. But in the context of minstrelsy at least, have the
> historic integrity to give credit where credit is due. Acknowledge
> that the minstrel personna was initially a black created and very
> sharp ingenious response to racism before it became a tool of that
> same racism as used/coopted by whites who were (also?) often ignorant
> of the less superficial, more subversive significance of that personna.

In this discussion I wasn't offering a broad historical perspective on
the minstrel tradition, or condemning it wholesale or advocating its
suppression. I was just responding to people who said its offensive
aspects were no longer relevant, didn't need further commentary, and
that people who thought otherwise should just get over it.

As your comments above indicate, the minstrel tradition was both a
response to and a tool of racism -- in other words, it is inseparable
from the issue of racism, and this should never be forgotten or passed
over in silence, even as we appreciate its positive side.

That's the only point I have been arguing here.



Mar de Cortes Baja

www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
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On Oct 29, 2:48 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
> David Totheroh wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 1:06 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
> >>Racism is an offense towards everyone and should be the concern of everyone.
>
> > OK, fair enough. But in the context of minstrelsy at least, have the
> > historic integrity to give credit where credit is due. Acknowledge
> > that the minstrel personna was initially a black created and very
> > sharp ingenious response to racism before it became a tool of that
> > same racism as used/coopted by whites who were (also?) often ignorant
> > of the less superficial, more subversive significance of that personna.
>
> In this discussion I wasn't offering a broad historical perspective on
> the minstrel tradition, or condemning it wholesale or advocating its
> suppression. I was just responding to people who said its offensive
> aspects were no longer relevant, didn't need further commentary, and
> that people who thought otherwise should just get over it.
>
> As your comments above indicate, the minstrel tradition was both a
> response to and a tool of racism -- in other words, it is inseparable
> from the issue of racism, and this should never be forgotten or passed
> over in silence, even as we appreciate its positive side.
>
> That's the only point I have been arguing here.

Actually, I think it's nearly impossible to read what you've written
here without coming to the conclusion that you DO condemn the minstrel
tradition wholesale. You didn't ever limit yourself to its use within
the Jazz Singer, and in fact expanded the discussion to generalized
characterizations, and not once did you address (or even meaningfully
acknowledge) its origins or more positive aspects.

And my only point throughout is that you are guilty of the same 'sin
of omission' as you claim are those who minimize the "tool", ie. white-
demeaning-blacks, aspects of the tradition.
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David Totheroh wrote:

> On Oct 29, 2:48 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:

>>As your comments above indicate, the minstrel tradition was both a
>>response to and a tool of racism -- in other words, it is inseparable
>>from the issue of racism, and this should never be forgotten or passed
>>over in silence, even as we appreciate its positive side.
>>
>>That's the only point I have been arguing here.
>
> Actually, I think it's nearly impossible to read what you've written
> here without coming to the conclusion that you DO condemn the minstrel
> tradition wholesale.

You can draw whatever conclusions you like, of course, but that one is
mistaken.



Mar de Cortes Baja

www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
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