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Since: Oct 23, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:33 pm
Post subject: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)
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I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
Soundtrack Pro?
Thanks in advance! |
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Since: Jul 06, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I'm replying to this post because there are probably quite a few
people even in the pro audio community who share this guy's naive
notions about what is possible with "digital audio." The answer to
the question is that there is essentially no way to "downplay the
music without taking away from the voices and other sounds" with
Soundtrack Pro or with any other software as long as the music, the
voices, and other sounds share a significant amount of audio
spectrum. Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and no
music. You can get rid of the unwanted music, but in the process
you'll make what is left sound so bizarre that you'll wish the music
was back. The best you can hope to do is to lower the level of the
unwanted music between words a bit, and to lower the existing music a
bit with filtering or eq when it's occupying a different part of the
spectrum (frequency range) from the dialog.
So... when the 1st AD says.... can't the sound of that car going by be
removed "digitally" by the guys in post without damaging the on-set
dialog... the answer is still, almost always, NO!
Randy
On Oct 23, 1:33 pm, StevenBNov....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
> of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
> on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
> music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
> Soundtrack Pro?
>
> Thanks in advance! |
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External
Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 553
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:10 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Pretty much none.
--
Martin Harrington
Lend An Ear Sound
Sydney Australia
0414 913 247
<StevenBNovick.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193171598.268399.276290@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
> of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
> on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
> music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
> Soundtrack Pro?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 106
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:29 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Randy,
you wmight want to check out Izotopes new program RX. It has the most
amazing de-clipper and spektral repair feature I´ve seen so far.
Slightly off topic and hard to believe but I´ve saved almost half of
extremely distored music with the de-clipper and painted out partials
of partly distorted pianos witht he spectral repair function.
Check out the trial it really is amazing what you can do with it. One
of the rules like "if it´s distorted there is no way around ADR" seems
to have dropped from the 10 commandments of sound.
Frank.
(no I don´t work for Izotope. I am just amazed what this tool has
saved me on ADR so far. I can send you examples of completely
distorted pianos and bassoons I restored with it. drop me an e-mail
and I´ll send via digidelivery)
On 24 Okt., 00:43, davidrandallt... RemoveThis @hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm replying to this post because there are probably quite a few
> people even in the pro audio community who share this guy's naive
> notions about what is possible with "digital audio." The answer to
> the question is that there is essentially no way to "downplay the
> music without taking away from the voices and other sounds" with
> Soundtrack Pro or with any other software as long as the music, the
> voices, and other sounds share a significant amount of audio
> spectrum. Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
> there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
> in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
> dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and no
> music. You can get rid of the unwanted music, but in the process
> you'll make what is left sound so bizarre that you'll wish the music
> was back. The best you can hope to do is to lower the level of the
> unwanted music between words a bit, and to lower the existing music a
> bit with filtering or eq when it's occupying a different part of the
> spectrum (frequency range) from the dialog.
>
> So... when the 1st AD says.... can't the sound of that car going by be
> removed "digitally" by the guys in post without damaging the on-set
> dialog... the answer is still, almost always, NO!
>
> Randy
>
> On Oct 23, 1:33 pm, StevenBNov... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
> > of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
> > on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
> > music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
> > Soundtrack Pro?
>
> > Thanks in advance! >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Oct 24, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<davidrandallthom.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193179387.376022.172010@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
> there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
> in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
> dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and no
> music.
[snip]
> Randy
Randy, could you expand on Caul's work? I'm unfamiliar with his
accomplishment, and it sounds fascinating.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511 >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 161
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"soundhaspriority" wrote ...
> Randy wrote ...
> [snip]
>>Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
>> there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
>> in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
>> dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and
>> no
>> music.
>
> Randy, could you expand on Caul's work? I'm unfamiliar with his
> accomplishment, and it sounds fascinating.
Harry Caul was the fictitious private investigator who
performed "magical" feats of filtering, etc. which are
possible only in the world of make-believe. He was the
early prototype of "CSI", et.al. who can perform such
feats of magic as making out all the digits of a license
plate number from 8 pixels of image data.
One of the side-effects of civilians watching this stuff
week after week is that they start believing that it is
really possible. >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 106
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:54 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 24 Okt., 16:34, <ra....RemoveThis@telus.net> wrote:
> But will it remove music behind dialogue? Which I think is what the
> original poster wanted to do.
I don´t think so. That´s why I wrote "off topic". I just thought I´d
mention it because it seemed somehow related.
Excuse my enthusiasm.
frank. >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Oct 24, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:52 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley.RemoveThis@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:13huf9e7t5rju7d@corp.supernews.com...
> "soundhaspriority" wrote ...
> > Randy wrote ...
> > [snip]
> >>Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
> >> there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
> >> in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
> >> dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and
> >> no
> >> music.
> >
> > Randy, could you expand on Caul's work? I'm unfamiliar with his
> > accomplishment, and it sounds fascinating.
>
> Harry Caul was the fictitious private investigator who
> performed "magical" feats of filtering, etc. which are
> possible only in the world of make-believe. He was the
> early prototype of "CSI", et.al. who can perform such
> feats of magic as making out all the digits of a license
> plate number from 8 pixels of image data.
>
> One of the side-effects of civilians watching this stuff
> week after week is that they start believing that it is
> really possible.
>
Ah! It's funny how I can forget a movie I admired so much. I particularly
liked the way he took apart his house at the end :)
A few years back, I spent two weeks with the Waves Restoration Suite
removing film camera noise. Unfortunately, this highly regarded suite of
plugins had no provision for cyclic noise, as film cameras produce. It
seems there is a missed opportunity to gate cyclic noise, and the
sophisticated spectrum analysis provided by these plugins provided modest
improvement.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511 >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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Since: Oct 24, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:57 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<StevenBNovick.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193171598.268399.276290@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
> of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
> on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
> music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
> Soundtrack Pro?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
I don't know what capabilities Soundtrack Pro provides, but in general,
these are the steps:
1. Run the track through a restricted voice bandwidth filter, 300-2000 Hz.
Put this on a new parallel track.
2. Program a gate to run off this track. Run both tracks through the gate.
3. See which track you prefer.
Since you asked for "downplay", this may actually satisfy you. As others in
this thread have pointed out, it isn't actually possible to remove unwanted
music, but you can downplay it, at the cost of artificiality.
Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511 >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Jun 05, 2007
Posts: 54
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:22 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 24, 7:54 am, wildt®ax <wildtraxs....DeleteThis@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 24 Okt., 16:34, <ra....DeleteThis@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > But will it remove music behind dialogue? Which I think is what the
> > original poster wanted to do.
>
> I don´t think so. That´s why I wrote "off topic". I just thought I´d
> mention it because it seemed somehow related.
> Excuse my enthusiasm.
>
> frank.
To continue the off topic Izotope discussion. I downloaded it from
your last recommendation of it. It seems pretty powerful. I wish I had
tough post job right now, it might do wonders, it might not. Anyways
it is a good program, maybe better than waves, we'll see.
Ian >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 251
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Randy is right. There is no magic.
And super-fancy plugins that might do wonders on fixing distortion in
acoustic instruments really won't help here. It's a totally different
problem. Distortion is a _lot_ easier.
Bob's idea of keying a gate with a bandpassed signal might help a
little, though I'd recommend an expander instead of a gate. In fact,
that's an old analog-days fix, and I still have a couple of analog
gates with bandpass filters in their sidechain.
However, I'm not sure you can do Bob's trick in Soundtrack Pro. Unless
you start mucking around with stereo splits, with a filtered version on
one channel and nonn-filtered on the other. Or cobble something
together in SFX Machine.
One possibility that hasn't been mentioned, possibly because
workflow/political issues make it virtually impossible on a feature,
but we do in cheap TV docys:
Find some licensable music in the same key as the stuff under your
recycled elements. Edit your music so it complements the existing
stuff. Feather your score up to theirs, and then bury theirs in your
mix.
If nobody can identify the older music as being separate from the stuff
you're paying for, it probably won't offend anyone's copyright...
--
Jay Rose CAS
tutorials and other sound goodies at dplay.com
email is "jay@" plus the dot-com in the previous line. >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 42
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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But will it remove music behind dialogue? Which I think is what the
original poster wanted to do.
"wildt®ax" <wildtraxspam.RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1193236151.404600.311070@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Randy,
you wmight want to check out Izotopes new program RX. It has the most
amazing de-clipper and spektral repair feature I´ve seen so far.
Slightly off topic and hard to believe but I´ve saved almost half of
extremely distored music with the de-clipper and painted out partials
of partly distorted pianos witht he spectral repair function.
Check out the trial it really is amazing what you can do with it. One
of the rules like "if it´s distorted there is no way around ADR" seems
to have dropped from the 10 commandments of sound.
Frank.
(no I don´t work for Izotope. I am just amazed what this tool has
saved me on ADR so far. I can send you examples of completely
distorted pianos and bassoons I restored with it. drop me an e-mail
and I´ll send via digidelivery)
On 24 Okt., 00:43, davidrandallt....RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm replying to this post because there are probably quite a few
> people even in the pro audio community who share this guy's naive
> notions about what is possible with "digital audio." The answer to
> the question is that there is essentially no way to "downplay the
> music without taking away from the voices and other sounds" with
> Soundtrack Pro or with any other software as long as the music, the
> voices, and other sounds share a significant amount of audio
> spectrum. Over thirty years after Coppola's film "The Conversation"
> there is still no way to come anywhere near doing what Harry Caul did
> in that film when he magically separated the broad spectrum music and
> dialog on a mono recording so that what was left was all dialog and no
> music. You can get rid of the unwanted music, but in the process
> you'll make what is left sound so bizarre that you'll wish the music
> was back. The best you can hope to do is to lower the level of the
> unwanted music between words a bit, and to lower the existing music a
> bit with filtering or eq when it's occupying a different part of the
> spectrum (frequency range) from the dialog.
>
> So... when the 1st AD says.... can't the sound of that car going by be
> removed "digitally" by the guys in post without damaging the on-set
> dialog... the answer is still, almost always, NO!
>
> Randy
>
> On Oct 23, 1:33 pm, StevenBNov....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I am putting together a montage of video clips set to music, yet some
> > of the clips already have pre-existing background music which is not
> > on a separate track. What is the best way to go about downplaying the
> > music without taking away from the voices and other sounds in
> > Soundtrack Pro?
>
> > Thanks in advance! >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 553
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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For a start, Soundtrack pro wont accept any of the VST, DX RTAS etc plug-in,
so the Ozone products won't work here unless Fxpansion have developed a
"wrapper" for them.
--
Martin Harrington
Lend An Ear Sound
Sydney Australia
"Jay Rose" <see_sigfile RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:2007102410401616807-seesigfile@nowherecom...
> Randy is right. There is no magic.
>
> And super-fancy plugins that might do wonders on fixing distortion in
> acoustic instruments really won't help here. It's a totally different
> problem. Distortion is a _lot_ easier.
>
> Bob's idea of keying a gate with a bandpassed signal might help a little,
> though I'd recommend an expander instead of a gate. In fact, that's an old
> analog-days fix, and I still have a couple of analog gates with bandpass
> filters in their sidechain.
>
> However, I'm not sure you can do Bob's trick in Soundtrack Pro. Unless you
> start mucking around with stereo splits, with a filtered version on one
> channel and nonn-filtered on the other. Or cobble something together in
> SFX Machine.
>
> One possibility that hasn't been mentioned, possibly because
> workflow/political issues make it virtually impossible on a feature, but
> we do in cheap TV docys:
>
> Find some licensable music in the same key as the stuff under your
> recycled elements. Edit your music so it complements the existing stuff.
> Feather your score up to theirs, and then bury theirs in your mix.
>
> If nobody can identify the older music as being separate from the stuff
> you're paying for, it probably won't offend anyone's copyright...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jay Rose CAS
> tutorials and other sound goodies at dplay.com
> email is "jay@" plus the dot-com in the previous line.
> >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 24 Okt., 16:40, Jay Rose <see_sigf... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> Randy is right. There is no magic.
>
> And super-fancy plugins that might do wonders on fixing distortion in
> acoustic instruments really won't help here. It's a totally different
> problem. Distortion is a _lot_ easier.
I´m aware of that. That´s I mentioned the term "off topic".
I just wanted to say that I´m positive that some day this might be
possible (not now of course). Before I used RX I´ve NEVER tried a tool
that was able to get rid of heavy distortion in an analogue input
stage and no digital clipping. And till a few days ago I would have
written down half of the film I´m currently on for ADR bacause I
thought "there was no magic".
never mind. didn´t want to hijack...
frank. >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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External
Since: Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 251
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2007-10-24 23:06:14 -0400, wildt®ax <wildtraxspam.DeleteThis@gmx.de> said:
> I just wanted to say that I´m positive that some day this might be
> possible (not now of course).
I'll agree with you on that one.
I've had some long conversations with speech science programmers about
the possibility of doing voice recognition on a guide track, and then
speech synthesis to recreate the actors' voices. And of course, the
performance would be completely tweakable.
Surprisingly, the synthesis part is already possible (though not on
most desktop computers, and it takes a -big- database); just ask AT&T.
It's the recognition that's holding things up.
--
Jay Rose CAS
tutorials and other sound goodies at dplay.com
email is "jay@" plus the dot-com in the previous line. >> Stay informed about: Eliminating Background Music in Soundtrack Pro |
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