The Evolution of Man and Machine

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:54:28 -0500, "JPM III" <jpmccord.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by the day,
>we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's devotion to their
>child is an emotion once thought only possible in humans. Neo's superhuman
>abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess once thought only possible in
>machines. Give it a few more tries, and the machines will have achieved what
>they're really aiming for: to be human.
>
>(Insert comparisons to Bicentennial Man here.)
>

Good insight, but I don't think the machines want to be completely
human (certainly not if it is the Architect's choice), they could
certainly use human traits, as you say, devotion to their kind,
esthetics values, hope, and all that implies.

Men could certainly use more logical thinking, more balanced
perspectives, less rage.

I think eventually there will be a meeting of minds and viewpoints,
and the Third Renaissance will ensue: a flowering of man/machine
civilization, on an equal basis and using to the utmost the features
of each one: machine endurance and human ingenuity.

After restoring the planet, they could do what they were meant to do:
Abandon their cradle and go where the cosmic wind takes them;
spreading sentience through the stars, reaping the bitter lessons
learned from their ancestors.
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

> > As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by the
> > day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's devotion to
> > their child is an emotion once thought only possible in humans. Neo's
> > superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess once thought only
> > possible in machines. Give it a few more tries, and the machines will
> > have achieved what they're really aiming for: to be human.
> >
> > (Insert comparisons to Bicentennial Man here.)
> >
>
> Good insight, but I don't think the machines want to be completely
> human (certainly not if it is the Architect's choice), they could
> certainly use human traits, as you say, devotion to their kind,
> esthetics values, hope, and all that implies.
>
> Men could certainly use more logical thinking, more balanced
> perspectives, less rage.
>
> I think eventually there will be a meeting of minds and viewpoints,
> and the Third Renaissance will ensue: a flowering of man/machine
> civilization, on an equal basis and using to the utmost the features
> of each one: machine endurance and human ingenuity.
>
> After restoring the planet, they could do what they were meant to do:
> Abandon their cradle and go where the cosmic wind takes them;
> spreading sentience through the stars, reaping the bitter lessons
> learned from their ancestors.

Any such Third Renaissance will likely necessarily follow a long dark age...
(and I thought I was an optimist. well, I am in real life!)
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:30:39 -0500, "JPM III" <jpmccord.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> > As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by the
>> > day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's devotion to
>> > their child is an emotion once thought only possible in humans. Neo's
>> > superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess once thought only
>> > possible in machines. Give it a few more tries, and the machines will
>> > have achieved what they're really aiming for: to be human.
>> >
>> > (Insert comparisons to Bicentennial Man here.)
>> >
>>
>> Good insight, but I don't think the machines want to be completely
>> human (certainly not if it is the Architect's choice), they could
>> certainly use human traits, as you say, devotion to their kind,
>> esthetics values, hope, and all that implies.
>>
>> Men could certainly use more logical thinking, more balanced
>> perspectives, less rage.
>>
>> I think eventually there will be a meeting of minds and viewpoints,
>> and the Third Renaissance will ensue: a flowering of man/machine
>> civilization, on an equal basis and using to the utmost the features
>> of each one: machine endurance and human ingenuity.
>>
>> After restoring the planet, they could do what they were meant to do:
>> Abandon their cradle and go where the cosmic wind takes them;
>> spreading sentience through the stars, reaping the bitter lessons
>> learned from their ancestors.
>
>Any such Third Renaissance will likely necessarily follow a long dark age...
>(and I thought I was an optimist. well, I am in real life!)
>

Matrix 1 to 6 were the dark age (oppression for mankind, and paranoid
watching for the machines.)

Now they won't have to waste as many resources killing people.
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

JPM III wrote:
> As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by
> the day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's
> devotion to their child is an emotion once thought only possible in
> humans. Neo's superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess
> once thought only possible in machines. Give it a few more tries, and
> the machines will have achieved what they're really aiming for: to be
> human.

Are you sure that they want "... to be human..."? While I don't doubt for a
moment that they want to be able to enjoy certain traits that make humans
'human' (e.g. to be able to feel illogical/ irrational emotions, unless
they've already done so), I feel that they want to remain as a race in their
own right--equal to humans--but that they don't necessaily want to usurp
humans, nor become them. Of course, they can never be, definitively
speaking, human... but to share something is different to becoming
something.

Melloccino
--------------
"The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of"
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--- Melloccino wrote:
>
> JPM III wrote:
> > As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by
> > the day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's
> > devotion to their child is an emotion once thought only possible in
> > humans. Neo's superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess
> > once thought only possible in machines. Give it a few more tries, and
> > the machines will have achieved what they're really aiming for: to be
> > human.
>
> Are you sure that they want "... to be human..."? While I don't doubt
> for a moment that they want to be able to enjoy certain traits that make
> humans 'human' (e.g. to be able to feel illogical/ irrational emotions,
> unless they've already done so), I feel that they want to remain as a
> race in their own right--equal to humans--but that they don't necessaily
> want to usurp humans, nor become them. Of course, they can never be,
> definitively speaking, human... but to share something is different to
> becoming something.

Let me borrow a line from Frost, from the movie Blade, that describes what
the machines want from humans: "all of our strengths, none of their
weaknesses".

Essentially, the machines are trying to combine their mechanical longevity
and durability with pleasure, love, and all the good of a human existence.
It's all programmed and thus they know it is entirely false. But if they
aren't beyond subjecting humans to a false reality, then why should they be
beyond deceiving themselves? At least their ethics are consistent.
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U¿ytkownik "JPM III" <jpmccord.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:bpaoqc$1m55uk$1@ID-53393.news.uni-berlin.de...
> --- Melloccino wrote:
> >
> > JPM III wrote:
> > > As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by
> > > the day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's
> > > devotion to their child is an emotion once thought only possible in
> > > humans. Neo's superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess
> > > once thought only possible in machines. Give it a few more tries, and
> > > the machines will have achieved what they're really aiming for: to be
> > > human.
> >
> > Are you sure that they want "... to be human..."? While I don't doubt
> > for a moment that they want to be able to enjoy certain traits that make
> > humans 'human' (e.g. to be able to feel illogical/ irrational emotions,
> > unless they've already done so), I feel that they want to remain as a
> > race in their own right--equal to humans--but that they don't necessaily
> > want to usurp humans, nor become them. Of course, they can never be,
> > definitively speaking, human... but to share something is different to
> > becoming something.
>
> Let me borrow a line from Frost, from the movie Blade, that describes what
> the machines want from humans: "all of our strengths, none of their
> weaknesses".

While quoting Frost we can add:
"We should be ruling the humans(...)theese people are our food,not our
allies"
and
"The world belongs to us,not the humans"

Of course it was while the end of Second Rennaissance...

> Essentially, the machines are trying to combine their mechanical longevity
> and durability with pleasure, love, and all the good of a human existence.
> It's all programmed and thus they know it is entirely false. But if they
> aren't beyond subjecting humans to a false reality, then why should they
be
> beyond deceiving themselves? At least their ethics are consistent.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

--- Gengon wrote:
>
> > > > As the man-machine hybrid comes closer and closer to realization by
> > > > the day, we can only see the signs. Rama-Kandra's and Kamala's
> > > > devotion to their child is an emotion once thought only possible in
> > > > humans. Neo's superhuman abilities exhibit electromagnetic prowess
> > > > once thought only possible in machines. Give it a few more tries,
> > > > and the machines will have achieved what they're really aiming for:
> > > > to be human.
> > > >
> > > > (Insert comparisons to Bicentennial Man here.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Good insight, but I don't think the machines want to be completely
> > > human (certainly not if it is the Architect's choice), they could
> > > certainly use human traits, as you say, devotion to their kind,
> > > esthetics values, hope, and all that implies.
> > >
> > > Men could certainly use more logical thinking, more balanced
> > > perspectives, less rage.
> > >
> > > I think eventually there will be a meeting of minds and viewpoints,
> > > and the Third Renaissance will ensue: a flowering of man/machine
> > > civilization, on an equal basis and using to the utmost the features
> > > of each one: machine endurance and human ingenuity.
> > >
> > > After restoring the planet, they could do what they were meant to do:
> > > Abandon their cradle and go where the cosmic wind takes them;
> > > spreading sentience through the stars, reaping the bitter lessons
> > > learned from their ancestors.
> > >
> >
> > Any such Third Renaissance will likely necessarily follow a long dark
> > age... (and I thought I was an optimist. well, I am in real life!)
> >
>
> Matrix 1 to 6 were the dark age (oppression for mankind, and paranoid
> watching for the machines.)
>
> Now they won't have to waste as many resources killing people.
>

Maybe. The Dark Age could have been Matrices 1 through 6, or it could be in
the future sometime, after the fall of machines and before the second rise
of man. Of couse, that could even be the Fourth Renaissance...
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:20:12 -0500, "JPM III" <jpmccord.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:


>> Matrix 1 to 6 were the dark age (oppression for mankind, and paranoid
>> watching for the machines.)
>>
>> Now they won't have to waste as many resources killing people.
>>
>
>Maybe. The Dark Age could have been Matrices 1 through 6, or it could be in
>the future sometime, after the fall of machines and before the second rise
>of man. Of couse, that could even be the Fourth Renaissance...
>

I don't think the machines will ever fall. They're so efficient they
would only fall if they started squabbling among themselves.

But this is what they already do (Oracle vs Architect) so, yeah, as
they acquire more human traits they also acquire potential weaknesses.

So they could definitely fall.

See what you did? Made me contradict myself in two paragraphs, if I
were a machine there would be a short circuit.

Lucky for me I am no...

*Smoke comes out over the keyboard and stops writing.*
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

> I don't think the machines will ever fall. They're so efficient they
> would only fall if they started squabbling among themselves.
>
> But this is what they already do (Oracle vs Architect) so, yeah, as
> they acquire more human traits they also acquire potential weaknesses.
>
> So they could definitely fall.
>
> See what you did? Made me contradict myself in two paragraphs, if I
> were a machine there would be a short circuit.
>
> Lucky for me I am no...
>
> *Smoke comes out over the keyboard and stops writing.*

The best way for the machines to fall would be for The One, anyone of them
in the future, to become as powerful as Smith and refuse to back down. Take
over enough of the Matrix (and even 01 if necessary) in order to prevent it
all from losing power, and then slowly implement programs to fight off any
resistance to the return of humanity. The One could program those still
plugged in with skills required to rebuild cities -- construction and
architecture, medicine and physiology, and of course engineering so more
minds can be freed and machines of all purposes can be built, allowing even
more and faster recovery for Zion.

Whee, that was fun.
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:56:43 -0500, "JPM III" <jpmccord.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> I don't think the machines will ever fall. They're so efficient they
>> would only fall if they started squabbling among themselves.
>>
>> But this is what they already do (Oracle vs Architect) so, yeah, as
>> they acquire more human traits they also acquire potential weaknesses.
>>
>> So they could definitely fall.
>>
>> See what you did? Made me contradict myself in two paragraphs, if I
>> were a machine there would be a short circuit.
>>
>> Lucky for me I am no...
>>
>> *Smoke comes out over the keyboard and stops writing.*
>
>The best way for the machines to fall would be for The One, anyone of them
>in the future, to become as powerful as Smith and refuse to back down. Take
>over enough of the Matrix (and even 01 if necessary) in order to prevent it
>all from losing power, and then slowly implement programs to fight off any
>resistance to the return of humanity. The One could program those still
>plugged in with skills required to rebuild cities -- construction and
>architecture, medicine and physiology, and of course engineering so more
>minds can be freed and machines of all purposes can be built, allowing even
>more and faster recovery for Zion.
>
>Whee, that was fun.
>

Could a One take over 01 and Deus ex Machina?
If the machines really can predict the reactions of the One then they
could foresee this.

I don't think he could do it alone, he would need the assistance of
several sentient programs, like the Oracle, Merovingian and Trainman.
Think about it: with Trainman they could have a direct link with 01 to
send malicious code.

The Merovingian would help, if given enough power.
But I don't think the Oracle could, given her stated desire for
coexistence. But who really knows the Oracle's mind?
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

> > > I don't think the machines will ever fall. They're so efficient they
> > > would only fall if they started squabbling among themselves.
> > >
> > > But this is what they already do (Oracle vs Architect) so, yeah, as
> > > they acquire more human traits they also acquire potential weaknesses.
> > >
> > > So they could definitely fall.
> > >
> > > See what you did? Made me contradict myself in two paragraphs, if I
> > > were a machine there would be a short circuit.
> > >
> > > Lucky for me I am no...
> > >
> > > *Smoke comes out over the keyboard and stops writing.*
> >
> > The best way for the machines to fall would be for The One, anyone of
> > them in the future, to become as powerful as Smith and refuse to back
> > down. Take over enough of the Matrix (and even 01 if necessary) in
> > order to prevent it all from losing power, and then slowly implement
> > programs to fight off any resistance to the return of humanity. The One
> > could program those still plugged in with skills required to rebuild
> > cities -- construction and architecture, medicine and physiology, and
> > of course engineering so more minds can be freed and machines of all
> > purposes can be built, allowing even more and faster recovery for Zion.
> >
> > Whee, that was fun.
> >
>
> Could a One take over 01 and Deus ex Machina?
> If the machines really can predict the reactions of the One then they
> could foresee this.
>
> I don't think he could do it alone, he would need the assistance of
> several sentient programs, like the Oracle, Merovingian and Trainman.
> Think about it: with Trainman they could have a direct link with 01 to
> send malicious code.
>
> The Merovingian would help, if given enough power.
> But I don't think the Oracle could, given her stated desire for
> coexistence. But who really knows the Oracle's mind?

I think the Oracle would be the least likely to help as well. She is
benevolent only as long as you play fair. Try to take more than what's
yours, and she'll slap you upside the head and reminds you that she is still
"mom"!
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:50:29 +0000, JPM III wrote:

>> > > I don't think the machines will ever fall. They're so efficient
>> > > they would only fall if they started squabbling among themselves.
>> > >
>> > > But this is what they already do (Oracle vs Architect) so, yeah, as
>> > > they acquire more human traits they also acquire potential
>> > > weaknesses.
>> > >
>> > > So they could definitely fall.
>> > >
>> > > See what you did? Made me contradict myself in two paragraphs, if I
>> > > were a machine there would be a short circuit.
>> > >
>> > > Lucky for me I am no...
>> > >
>> > > *Smoke comes out over the keyboard and stops writing.*
>> >
>> > The best way for the machines to fall would be for The One, anyone of
>> > them in the future, to become as powerful as Smith and refuse to back
>> > down. Take over enough of the Matrix (and even 01 if necessary) in
>> > order to prevent it all from losing power, and then slowly implement
>> > programs to fight off any resistance to the return of humanity. The
>> > One could program those still plugged in with skills required to
>> > rebuild cities -- construction and architecture, medicine and
>> > physiology, and of course engineering so more minds can be freed and
>> > machines of all purposes can be built, allowing even more and faster
>> > recovery for Zion.
>> >
>> > Whee, that was fun.
>> >
>> >
>> Could a One take over 01 and Deus ex Machina? If the machines really
>> can predict the reactions of the One then they could foresee this.
>>
>> I don't think he could do it alone, he would need the assistance of
>> several sentient programs, like the Oracle, Merovingian and Trainman.
>> Think about it: with Trainman they could have a direct link with 01 to
>> send malicious code.
>>
>> The Merovingian would help, if given enough power. But I don't think
>> the Oracle could, given her stated desire for coexistence. But who
>> really knows the Oracle's mind?
>
> I think the Oracle would be the least likely to help as well. She is
> benevolent only as long as you play fair. Try to take more than what's
> yours, and she'll slap you upside the head and reminds you that she is
> still "mom"!

Although she is supposed to be the unbalancer, I believe she is the most
balanced and unbiased of all: men and machines.

This leads me to ponder my theory that the Oracle is the narrator of
Second Renaissance 1/2, she certainly shows enough compassion and empathy
to be the figure that tries to cradle the human child in the last scene.
 >> Stay informed about: The Evolution of Man and Machine 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:22:24 +0000, Gengon
<sergiorogerdon'tspam@esmas.com> wrote:


>
>Although she is supposed to be the unbalancer, I believe she is the most
>balanced and unbiased of all: men and machines.
>

Good point. I agree.

>This leads me to ponder my theory that the Oracle is the narrator of
>Second Renaissance 1/2, she certainly shows enough compassion and empathy
>to be the figure that tries to cradle the human child in the last scene.

Very interesting, I really don't know. Certainly someone who sees both
sides.


James.Williams
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