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Michael Filosa, CAS

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Since: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 28



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 3:58 pm
Post subject: Flat Rates....
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)

I do my level best to uphold dignity and respect for sound with regard
to freelance work, rates, etc.
I think this is something that needs to be collectively dealt with and
considered in our day to day negotiations...

I am rather opposed to the 1/2 day, and guess what, I usually get the
full 10, or at least 8 hr rate after a little pleasant negotiation,
reminding the potential client of the importance of sync sound, what
it takes to do it, and my track record...

Lately, I was asked to do a couple of days of Politicals here in the
Atlanta area, and was offered what was basically an 8hr rate, but with
the caveat that the producer wanted me on a "flat rate" for those $$.

I accepted the 8hr rate - for 8hrs of work! (we all have to give up
the time for prep, travel, and then travel, unload, don't we?)..... I
was put on "hold". I called to check on this, as it is only 4 days
away... should I have expected a courtesy call to "unhold me"? Geez,
not in this day and age .....

Apparently one of my fine colleagues here in Atlanta has accepted that
deal.... very nice. At hour 14 or so I'd like you to think of this
little posting here on Ramps. Actually, at hour 11, why not...? And
also on your drive back, which might be 50 miles or so each way ....
or when you find out, that since you are now on a flat, maybe they can
squeeze another version or full spot out of you and the crew ....

If they have their act together, well, than they wouldn't ask for a
flat rate, would they? You will soon find out the value of such a
request, and the uncompensated impostion of such on your time and
life.

When you accept a flat rate, you have granted the client a free
license to poorly produce, and expect that to happen...

Cheers!

MF

Michael Filosa, CAS
Atlanta Field Production, Inc



ps please Bill D. , don't invite me to "rethink my business model"
again over this one.... you are a producer, after all....

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Martin Harrington

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Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 553



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: Flat Rates.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Michael,
Did you hit them for a cancellation?
I did a job last week where I was booked for a solid week on a TV prog, I
had to call on the Friday afternoon and ask what the call time was, to be
told that they had just cancelled the Monday shoot.
The co-ordinator said to hit them with at least a half day cancellation..we
shoot Tuesday, and they say that there is nothing on Wednesday, but the rest
of the week was OK.
Given that they cancelled 2 days, I figured that they will be hit for 2 full
cancelled days...only fair, right?
The thing is, I don't think they have a problem with it....
To bad if they do, because that's what's going to happen.
--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com
"Michael Filosa, CAS" <mikefilosa RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b3867928.0405221458.40fdc32d@posting.google.com...
> I do my level best to uphold dignity and respect for sound with regard
> to freelance work, rates, etc.
> I think this is something that needs to be collectively dealt with and
> considered in our day to day negotiations...
>
> I am rather opposed to the 1/2 day, and guess what, I usually get the
> full 10, or at least 8 hr rate after a little pleasant negotiation,
> reminding the potential client of the importance of sync sound, what
> it takes to do it, and my track record...
>
> Lately, I was asked to do a couple of days of Politicals here in the
> Atlanta area, and was offered what was basically an 8hr rate, but with
> the caveat that the producer wanted me on a "flat rate" for those $$.
>
> I accepted the 8hr rate - for 8hrs of work! (we all have to give up
> the time for prep, travel, and then travel, unload, don't we?)..... I
> was put on "hold". I called to check on this, as it is only 4 days
> away... should I have expected a courtesy call to "unhold me"? Geez,
> not in this day and age .....
>
> Apparently one of my fine colleagues here in Atlanta has accepted that
> deal.... very nice. At hour 14 or so I'd like you to think of this
> little posting here on Ramps. Actually, at hour 11, why not...? And
> also on your drive back, which might be 50 miles or so each way ....
> or when you find out, that since you are now on a flat, maybe they can
> squeeze another version or full spot out of you and the crew ....
>
> If they have their act together, well, than they wouldn't ask for a
> flat rate, would they? You will soon find out the value of such a
> request, and the uncompensated impostion of such on your time and
> life.
>
> When you accept a flat rate, you have granted the client a free
> license to poorly produce, and expect that to happen...
>
> Cheers!
>
> MF
>
> Michael Filosa, CAS
> Atlanta Field Production, Inc
>
>
>
> ps please Bill D. , don't invite me to "rethink my business model"
> again over this one.... you are a producer, after all....

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G. John Garrett, CAS

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Since: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Flat Rates.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Michael Filosa, CAS wrote:

....
>
> Lately, I was asked to do a couple of days of Politicals here in the
> Atlanta area, and was offered what was basically an 8hr rate, but with
> the caveat that the producer wanted me on a "flat rate" for those $$.


One group that I never give discounts to is politicians. Ever. And have your
checkbook handy at the end of the day. Hm, were they out of New Jersey? I got a
funny couplea calls last week for some political ads...

>
> When you accept a flat rate, you have granted the client a free
> license to poorly produce, and expect that to happen...

No, you give the client a license to abuse you. My motto for this year is "you
have to treat me better than that."

Best,
John
>
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G. John Garrett, CAS

External


Since: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Flat Rates.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Nick wrote:

> As a side note, most of the calls I get from NY or LA producers ask for a
> twelve hour day as standard. I know it's nothing new, but it's awful
> nonetheless and we should try to keep it from spreading. A ten hour day is
> long enough.


The person who called me last week for the political asked for my rate, so I
gave them my regular 8 hour street rate for commercials. They then asked what my
rate for 10 was. I said "8 hours of straight time and 2 of time-and-a-half," and
got out my calculator and read off the numbers. Don't these guys and gals even
know how to count?

John
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Thomas Beach

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Since: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 50



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Flat Rates.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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As many of you might know from my previous posts, I am a new mixer,
having begun last year with an HD feature. Since then, I have done
four additional features, three HD and one Super 16. All of these
features have been one-man-band for me. I just wrapped another HD
feature in Chicago, also one-man-band. I finally worked myself up to
demanding OT, all with the assurances that we would never go beyond 12
a day. Yes, I confess, that at least here in the Midwest, indie
features expect 12 hours per day. I have given them that each and
every time. Something else I've found (and of course knew in advance)
was that what everyone here has been saying is an absolute truth.
Open ended flats are an invitation for total abuse.

Each time I have done an open ended flat, I have consistently worked
14-16 hours a day. I even had a 23 hour day on the Super 16 shoot.
Interestingly enough, on this last shoot which just wrapped, I
hammered out an OT schedule for 12+ (x1.5) and 14+ (x2.0). Of course
the producer, in his attempts during negotiations, said how in his
previous three features, he had never gone over 12. It was then that
i remembered a line from Fred Ginsburg: "Then you won't mind if at 12
hours, I pack up my gear and call it a day then, right? Because
without the OT clause, that's exactly what I'm going to have to do."
I couldn't believe I said it. I got my OT schedule. Well... I'm here
to tell you that in twenty days pf production, I ended up with over 10
hours of x1.5 and a few more at x2.0. In fact, I unintentionally
caused a mutiny of sorts. The DP found out that I had OT in my deal
and after the first week, demanded and got OT for camera, grip and
electric as well!

i am presently waiting to hear back from a producer right now who
offered me a flat rate with promises of a 12 hour day. Of course they
rejected the idea of using MY deal memo. I said sure, but I will
e-mail you some "issues" that will need to be incorporated into YOUR
deal memo. So far, since having sent that e-mail this morning, the
phone has remained silent. No skin. I'm now to the point that I will
start passing on indie features without OT as well as other important
provisions and just make it work until the next project that can do it
right. I've done exceptionally good work for the most part IMHO, and
don't need to be beat up and abused any longer. At least not without
proper compensation.

Anyway, its nice to know by reading these posts, along with John
Coffey's harrowing tome that I'm not the only one out here struggling
to do the best work possible while trying to just survive the shoots.

Thanks to all for your war stories. They really mean a lot to me.

Tom Beach
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Wolf

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Since: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 59



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:18 am
Post subject: Re: Flat Rates.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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congratulations..............
good work....... its frighning to risk ones livelyhood esp. since all
these producers talk to eachother of course......
in the union world one would expect not to have to negotiate like this,
with all the fear and retribution... but not so...

here a story from RAMPS the national IATSE reform oriented list mailer
you can join if invited...

I heard a chilling story today about the dangers of letting too much
information get onto computers and into the wrong hands.

A friend of mine, who is a visual effects supervisor, wanted to hire an
editor for a studio picture. The “corporate policy” was that they would
only pay him as much as his last salary. The editor cut a deal for his
going rate. The studio came back with paperwork saying that he had
recently worked for a lower rate, and therefore they would only consider
paying him at the lower rate. Apparently, as a favor to a friend, he cut
his usual rate for a couple week gig – at ANOTHER STUDIO. Yet the first
studio mysteriously had this information and used it to screw him.

We must all be very careful about who compiles and who has access to any
data regarding our employment. It will be critical for us to maintain
complete control at our unions over the type of information we allow
them to collect and whom they let access that information.
Information is power.
-Tim M.
L600, CDU
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