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Next: M-Vid Playback Amp/Speakers?
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External
Since: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:05 pm
Post subject: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)
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Ok so here's the deal RAMPERS....
I have this "situation" where once a month two talent and a producer
go out to do an interview with someone of note.
The environment is totally uncontrollable, someone's home, hotel room,
wherever they can find a nice quiet mutally convenient spot.
They sit down and talk for 1 to 2 hours, all the time the producer
taking notes, running a cassette for transcription and a Marantz
PMD-650 MiniDisc with 2 Crown Sound Grabber PZM's placed somewhere
close to the two talent and the subject.
Then a couple of days later I get it and do my best to remove as much
room and background noise from it as possible and make it sound "good
enough" to stream down this old internet pipeline we all have found so
convenient for just about everything.
Here's the thing, over the past couple of years we have done this it
has gotten messed up at least 2 or 3 times. Overall it sounds nasty,
although POST ProTools it actually sounds listenable, I'll chalk that
up to my incredible talents, and more plug-ins then you can shake a
mouse at, TGF Software!
So today I got one of these discs and of course there was nothing on
it. Ok there was the producer going "Check 1 2 3, Check 1 2 3...."
that was it. The producer on my end just shrugs and I shrug back at
her.
They DO NOT WANT TO SEND A REAL AUDIO ENGINEER!! They want it to
continue to be a small intimate feel and the concern is also that of
money to send someone out.
So here's where you guys and gals come in.... The PMD 650 is not doing
the job, its broken twice over 2 years, not through any fault of its
own, just from improper handling. I've considered a flash type
recorder and am very interested in that type of setup as well.
Especially something that could load directly in to ProTools that
would be phenomenal! What have you seen, heard, played with, or used
that I could handoff to a producer that would be extremely easy to use
in this type of situation. I am also open to other mic choices. The
PZM's seemed like a good choice at the time, but now I'm looking for
some sound quality improvement overall and that is part of the package
as well.
Also, limited budget of say 1-2K for the recorder and probably 1K for
two mics. Less is better, but I also want to be realisitic.
Any and all feedback very much welcome.
Be Well,
Gerry Formicola |
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External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 478
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 478
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Gerry Formicola wrote:
>
> I've considered a flash type
> recorder and am very interested in that type of setup as well.
> Especially something that could load directly in to ProTools that
> would be phenomenal!
> ...
> limited budget of say 1-2K for the recorder
I should have 'splained myself a little better here:
If you're postprocessing the audio, it's even more important than usual
when choosing a recorder that it (1) have good preamps and (2) record as
much dynamic range as possible (think 24 bits) and that it not use lossy
compression--since that subtle stuff throwon away by minidiscs, MP3,
etc. can sometimes make the difference between 'tweakable' and 'hopeless.' >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 121
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I think an archos Multimedia recorder and two Sennheiser e550 wireless would be
good for you. The price is right, and I'm using the Archos as a DAT backup
right now (Along with a Casio D7). The quality (180Kbp/s) is better than CD,
and it has a line input which feeds from the tape-out of my SD442. I use the
TA3 outputs for comtek xmtr, the Hirose for DAT feed and return, leaving the
regular XLR outputs for anything else, including playback feed.
Also, at this rate, you can record over 250 hours of audio at super-high
quality, which is more than enough for a feature. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 478
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:45 am
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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what model archos do you use for recording? is it a stereo mini in?
On 23 Aug 2003 06:25:51 GMT, stiletto2.RemoveThis@aol.com (Stiletto2) wrote:
>I think an archos Multimedia recorder and two Sennheiser e550 wireless would be
>good for you. The price is right, and I'm using the Archos as a DAT backup
>right now (Along with a Casio D7). The quality (180Kbp/s) is better than CD,
>and it has a line input which feeds from the tape-out of my SD442. I use the
>TA3 outputs for comtek xmtr, the Hirose for DAT feed and return, leaving the
>regular XLR outputs for anything else, including playback feed.
>
>Also, at this rate, you can record over 250 hours of audio at super-high
>quality, which is more than enough for a feature. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 121
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Yes, stere mini-in wchich is a line input from the DAT. I record both at the
same time, and have a RCA video input going to the Archos as well from the
video tap. That way, it is all together with the image, no need to sync, and if
all else fails, it still sounds good off of the hard drive.
The model number of the Archos is a AV120. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ok, I'm liking the alternatives I'm hearing had not thought of the
upcoming Sound Devices piece.
Just remember this is being run by a producer who is taking notes on
whats going on and running a transcription cassette as well.
Technical knowledge is at a bare minimum. At this point I'm thrilled
when I get a disc back and it actually HAS audio on it.
Also lav mics are not a possibility, I've provided them before and
they never get used. Wireless just adds more to the melee for the
producer to think about.
I'm gonna look up the Archos, and think about that as well.
Kurt, thanks about the reminder about starting out with better quality
from the top, I know the MD we use now is not what I would have liked,
but it fit the price/performance parameter a couple of years ago when
we bought it. Now, as you stated I think we can do better within the
budget I have available.
Thanks all, and keep the posts coming.
Gerry >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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Since: Aug 17, 2003
Posts: 100
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 19
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Whenever you build an "Idiot-Proof" rig, they just go out and build a bigger
Idiot.
IMHO, it doesn't matter what new magical box you record this stuff on, the
fundamental hole in the process is the lack of knowledge and/or lack of concern
by the operator. I believe you would get better results giving the Producer a
four-hour audio seminar and an old wire recorder than handing a clueless
operator the newest bestest digital wonder box.
To paraphrase the Astronauts (and apologies to the RAMPS women) "It's not the
machine, it's the Man," that gets the job done right.
My 2¢.
- Winston >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 121
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:28 am
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 118
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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gformicola.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Gerry Formicola) wrote in message news:<
> They sit down and talk for 1 to 2 hours, all the time the producer
> taking notes, running a cassette for transcription and a Marantz
> PMD-650 MiniDisc with 2 Crown Sound Grabber PZM's placed somewhere
> close to the two talent and the subject.
>
> Then a couple of days later I get it and do my best to remove as much
> room and background noise from it as possible and make it sound "good
> enough" to stream down this old internet pipeline we all have found so
> convenient for just about everything.
>
> Here's the thing, over the past couple of years we have done this it
> has gotten messed up at least 2 or 3 times. Overall it sounds nasty,
> although POST ProTools it actually sounds listenable, I'll chalk that
> up to my incredible talents, and more plug-ins then you can shake a
> mouse at, TGF Software!
The process is backwards. This PZM method of micing is, in my eyes,
what's causing the problems, not the inferiority of the minidisc
recorder. While there are plenty of improvements you could make in
the recorder department, the idea of "let's record poor audio on a
great recorder so we can clean it up later" sounds to me like "let's
not fix the broken leg, let's just get a really souped-up wheelchair
so the patient can negotiate the sidewalk better". My advice is to
mic the subjects properly. If you do this, it should be fine (for
your purposes of streaming audio) on a minidisc or other subpar
recorder. Someone already suggested a pair of lavaliers, which would
work quite well. Another option is to place decent mics on stands
above the subjects. There are all manner of cheap condenser mics
that, while not offering the quality of our usual tools for this
purpose (which would blow your budget out of the water), would be a
marked improvement on what you are currently doing. The Oktavas
spring instantly to mind, but there are also other very affordable,
directional condensers available from Audio-Technica, AKG, and if you
have enough money, even Sennheiser (the K6 or used 416s) or Sanken
(the new short shotgun). Neither of these methods requires much more
complex understanding of audio engineering procedures than what you're
already doing (place microphones properly, connect to recorder, power
microphones, set gain, press record), and the results will be much
better, with clearer voices recorded in better fidelity with less
background noise. It'll mean less severe tweaking later for you also.
Good luck!
Regards,
Noah Timan
(working email is noahtiman at earthlinkdotttnet) >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 478
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gerry Formicola wrote:
>
> lav mics are not a possibility, I've provided them before and
> they never get used.
What about an earset like the E6?
> Kurt, thanks about the reminder about starting out with better quality
> from the top, I know the MD we use now is not what I would have liked,
> but it fit the price/performance parameter a couple of years ago when
> we bought it. Now, as you stated I think we can do better within the
> budget I have available.
High bitrate MP3 actually sounds pretty decent as long as you don't muck
with it in post. Start slicing, dicing and EQing and sometimes the
artifacts jump up and hit you in the face. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 478
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Noah Timan wrote:
>
> The process is backwards. This PZM method of micing is, in my eyes,
> what's causing the problems, not the inferiority of the minidisc
> recorder.
Definitely.
> Someone already suggested a pair of lavaliers, which would
> work quite well. Another option is to place decent mics on stands
> above the subjects.
You could even put a figure-eight between them--but I don't know of any
inexpensive figure-eights that would be up to the task. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 118
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kurt Albershardt <kurt DeleteThis @nv.net> wrote in message news:<1061773227.27487 DeleteThis @nnrp1.phx1.gblx.net>...
> You could even put a figure-eight between them--but I don't know of any
> inexpensive figure-eights that would be up to the task.
That also assumes they are sitting directly across from one another,
which may or may not be the case each individual time. >> Stay informed about: Idiot proof audio and other high ideals |
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