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doktorf

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Since: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:11 pm
Post subject: Kong vs. Kong
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The contenders are my favorite movie of all time and a *remake* by some
guy from a backwater where Christmas comes in the middle of summer.
Remakes...how well I remember the efforts of a man who calls himself
Dino DeLaurentis (a name that shall endure in infamy, a name that I
have been known to utter as a curse on some occasions). Remake King
Kong! Let's rewrite the Bible and the Magna Carta! Can we punch up
Shakespeare while we're at it?
For almost fifty years I have loved King Kong discovering new layers
with each viewing (perhaps as many as 100 as of this writing. Viewings,
not layers) I watched it again today shortly after seeing Peter
Jackson's version in the theater.
Peter Jackson wrote a script about ten years ago that has made the
rounds on the internet and reads really well. One could tell just on
the strength of this document that his vision was far clearer than that
of DeLaurentis (P-tui!), not that a blind oaf couldn't have. The
current film is not the 1996 script. Jackson is responsible for a film
I rather enjoyed called "Forgotten Silver". I saw this made for tv
"mocumentary" for the first time shortly after I read his Kong Script,
and much about it convinced met that he may indeed be up to making
Kong. We had to wait, though. He was still an obscure name in the world
of film at that time, still living in the world's remotest nation. He
had to devote many years to producing a glossy three part setting of a
third-rate fairy tale to become marketable enough to make King Kong. I
suppose the end justifies the means. Jackson insists that the goal of
remaking King Kong is why he became a film maker. I will grant that it
is hard to discern that ambition in films like "Bad Taste".

There will be spoilers, my friends. You have been warned.
Let us compare the efforts on 1933 with 2005.
In Cooper and Schoedsack's King Kong, the principal (human)
character, filmmaker Carl Denham as portrayed by Robert Armstrong, is
an adventurer. He is, in fact modeled rather closely after Merian C.
Cooper. Cooper is as close to a real life Indiana Jones as we have ever
seen. Armstrong gives us a jovial, good-hearted (if somewhat
over-reaching) producer who wants to show the world the greatest thing
it has ever seen.
Denham as portrayed by Jack Black in 2005, is a much darker
character. He is at odds with his studio and starts off his adventure
on the run from the law. It just gets worse. On so many occasions when
it comes down to saving a colleague or the film, the choice for him is
not even difficult and the human being doesn't come out on top. This
Carl Denham just isn't a real good guy.
In Cooper and Schoedsack's King Kong, Jack Driscoll is the first mate
of the Venture. He is the classic self contained man of the sea. He is
exactly the guy you expect to be a hero when heroism is called for.
Driscoll in Jackson's Kong is a playwright, a man who one suspect's has
never been outside of the five boroughs. He rises to heroism, but the
audience never dreams he has ever been there before.
Ann Darrow in the 1933 film had little back story. All of her
character depended on the beauty and personality of Fay Wray. All we
knew about her was that she had done some extra work.
In Jackson's film, Ann Darrow is a slapstick comic working the
vaudeville circuit. She has also found herself out of work and
encounters Denham just as she refuses to lower herself to stripping for
a living. She is very athletic and this makes much of the action of the
film a lot more plausible.
King Kong... In Cooper and Schoedsack's film Kong is just there. He
is the living god of a lost island. Kong is a gigantic gorilla, or is
he? He seems not to resemble a living gorilla all that much. He is more
bipedal than quadrupedal with an easy erect stance. His face is very
un-gorilla-like. His facial expressions are very human. He has white
eyes like a human rather than dark eyes like an ape. Kong is not a
gorilla, Kong is a kong, a type of anthropoid ape that attains a size
of 25 feet or more.
Peter Jackson's Kong is a gorilla, albeit a vary large one, in both
look and behavior even down to the slight gray "saddle" marking on his
back. He is perceptibly very old, perhaps hundreds of years old, and
covered with scars. Unlike African gorillas, he has spent most of his
life fighting some of the most dangerous beasts that one could ever
imagine. African gorillas only fight when cornered so one guesses that
this Kong finds himself cornered a lot.
Interestingly, there is fossil evidence of an orangutan relative
that once lived in Asia that attained Son of Kong/Mighty Joe Young type
proportions. He lived there around the same time early humans did and
must have occasionally scared the bejesus out of them when they
disturbed one.

Skull Island. In the 1933 film, Skull Island was seemingly once the
heart of some great civilization. The people who currently lived there
certainly didn't build that wall and one presumes that they were
descendants of people who discovered the island after the original
human inhabitants had died out.
The dinosaurs and other prehistoric beasts that inhabit the island on
the other side of the wall are part of no understandable ecology. There
are many types represented, but there can't bee too many of them on
such a small island. If you pay careful notice to Denham's map and
compare it to the size of the inhabited peninsula, you realize that the
island is no bigger than Tahiti. To support that kind of fauna, it
would have to be at least as big as Borneo. This is seemingly explained
in the movie Son of Kong when it is revealed that the island is
sinking. One presumes that the final swallowing by the ocean depicted
in that film is merely the last gasp of a process that has been going
on for centuries. This casts Skull Island as sort of a South Seas
Atlantis. Once it was huge with vast wild lands where dinosaurs and
kongs roamed free and here and there were the cities of a great
civilization that was capable of building huge structures of stone and
great temples honoring gods for whom we have no name.
Jackson's film seems to take place on this same Skull Island, the
only apparent difference is that the natives appear to be actual
descendants of the original inhabitants. They seem far more savage and
brutal and far less cultured than those of the 1933 film. They are not
colonists in a new land, they are the sad remnant of a people who were
once great. They are now shell shocked and brutalized by the declining
environment of their world.
The dinosaurs of Jackson's film, like those of Cooper and
Schodesack's, are both larger and more confrontational than their
ancient counterparts. The behavior can be chalked up to environmental
pressure and competition for very limited resources. None of the
creatures in Jackson's Kong seem to be exact representatives of animals
in the fossil record and that's probably a good thing in a fantasy
film.

Peter Jackson's King Kong is a little short of twice the runtime of
the 1933 original. We are an hour into the film before we even see
Skull Island. That time is devoted to good stuff, lots of character
development. We get to know Denham, Driscoll and Ann as well as the
crew of the Venture and the film crew. While it is time well spent, it
slows the picture down enormously. The extra character development does
pay off and I was never bored, but some of it could have been dispensed
with. I'll get to that later.
The 1930's New York City is an amazing recreation. I don't think
anything like it has ever been attempted. The Civil War era New York of
Scorsese's Gangs of New York comes close, but I think this has it beat.
My only real criticism is that I would have expected to have seen more
horse-drawn vehicles in the streets. In the era before World War II, a
great number of delivery vans were horse-drawn rather than gas powered.
This, I will grant, is a minor quibble.
Skull Island is the most forbidding wilderness imaginable and the
creatures that inhabit it are amazing. In one scene stampeding
brontosaurs crowd through a slot canyon like a river of flesh. In
another, Kong defends Ann from a trio of creatures a tyrannosaur
relative called vastatosaurus rex and they are as big and mean as they
come. The things that Jackson does with these animals are like nothing
that the stop-motion artists of the past could have considered. The
proximity with human actors, the number of animated creatures on screen
and the kinds of positions in which they are animated is simply beyond
the bounds of the stop-motion animator's craft. The scene in which ann,
Kong and the v. rexs plunge into the canyon and end up suspended from
vines, one of them swinging back and forth to snap menacingly at Ann
when he swings close. I will not review scene by scene, mostly because
you have already seen it, but suffice it to say that technologically,
the 1933 Kong cannot touch the 2005 Kong. It was not only the
technology, these scenes have extraordinary emotional content. It seems
tired to talk about being on the edge of one's seat, but honestly it
was all I could do to sit still through these scenes.
When the moment of Kong's escape in New York comes I was surprised
not to see him tear down the elevated train but the bit with the bus
was comparable. At this point we are led through a series of events
that culminates with Kong's death atop the Empire state. It is so well
filmed and scripted that I was deeply moved by the tragedy of the
events even though I knew exactly what was going to happen. It
was...Shakespearian.

There were some tributes to the 1933 film that I loved. On the ship
Jackson had the actors performing lines from the original Kong and in
the New York introduction of Kong, he recreated the native dance from
the original Kong. Very cool.

I loved this film. Honest, I did. That being said, there are things I
would change. About a half hour could be cut from this film easy. A lot
of the stuff with Denham and the Hollywood guys, some of the stuff that
happens on the ship, The entire sequence on the pond in Central Park,
about half of the screen time devoted to deep searching gazes from Ann,
we could loose all that stuff and the movie would be improved.



O.k., there is no doubt that this is a great movie made by a man with
overwhelming love for the material. In some ways he was fearless
pushing the envelope as far as he could. It was a real attempt to make
King Kong effect a 2005 audience the same way the 1933 version effected
those audiences. He wanted to show us what King Kong looked like then.
Pretty much a job well done sez I.

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Wolf

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Since: Jul 19, 2005
Posts: 28



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Kong vs. Kong [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> There will be spoilers, my friends. You have been warned.
> Let us compare the efforts on 1933 with 2005.
> In Cooper and Schoedsack's King Kong, the principal (human)
> character, filmmaker Carl Denham as portrayed by Robert Armstrong, is
> an adventurer. He is, in fact modeled rather closely after Merian C.
> Cooper. Cooper is as close to a real life Indiana Jones as we have ever
> seen. Armstrong gives us a jovial, good-hearted (if somewhat
> over-reaching) producer who wants to show the world the greatest thing
> it has ever seen.
> Denham as portrayed by Jack Black in 2005, is a much darker
> character. He is at odds with his studio and starts off his adventure
> on the run from the law. It just gets worse. On so many occasions when
> it comes down to saving a colleague or the film, the choice for him is
> not even difficult and the human being doesn't come out on top. This
> Carl Denham just isn't a real good guy.

This isn't all that at odds with the old script's Denham. Honestly, reading
a little about Cooper and some of his cameramen, isn't all that at odds with
the real thing. Cooper was certainly less callous, but we see hints of
humanity in this Denham. It's just lost to the ambition.

> In Cooper and Schoedsack's King Kong, Jack Driscoll is the first mate
> of the Venture. He is the classic self contained man of the sea. He is
> exactly the guy you expect to be a hero when heroism is called for.
> Driscoll in Jackson's Kong is a playwright, a man who one suspect's has
> never been outside of the five boroughs. He rises to heroism, but the
> audience never dreams he has ever been there before.

Yeah, this was the one thing. The first mate and Driscoll sort of split the
old Driscoll role. We do get the idea that Driscoll is relatively plucky
though.

> Skull Island. In the 1933 film, Skull Island was seemingly once the
> heart of some great civilization. The people who currently lived there
> certainly didn't build that wall and one presumes that they were
> descendants of people who discovered the island after the original
> human inhabitants had died out.

> Jackson's film seems to take place on this same Skull Island, the
> only apparent difference is that the natives appear to be actual
> descendants of the original inhabitants. They seem far more savage and
> brutal and far less cultured than those of the 1933 film. They are not
> colonists in a new land, they are the sad remnant of a people who were
> once great. They are now shell shocked and brutalized by the declining
> environment of their world.

They are inbred. I wonder, though, why an obviously fishing people had no
boats.

> I loved this film. Honest, I did. That being said, there are things I
> would change. About a half hour could be cut from this film easy. A lot
> of the stuff with Denham and the Hollywood guys, some of the stuff that
> happens on the ship, The entire sequence on the pond in Central Park,
> about half of the screen time devoted to deep searching gazes from Ann,
> we could loose all that stuff and the movie would be improved.

I thought the central Park scene was useful. It's probably the first time in
his life that Kong wasn't fighting something and I think ti goes a long way
towards explaining Kong's mindset on the tower.

--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf

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Doctor TOC

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Since: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:07 pm
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Nice review. Thanks!

Doctor TOC
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nmstevens

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Since: Oct 31, 2005
Posts: 20



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 pm
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> When the moment of Kong's escape in New York comes I was surprised
> not to see him tear down the elevated train but the bit with the bus
> was comparable. At this point we are led through a series of events
> that culminates with Kong's death atop the Empire state. It is so well
> filmed and scripted that I was deeply moved by the tragedy of the
> events even though I knew exactly what was going to happen. It
> was...Shakespearian.
>

There's a reason why the El train scene is missing. It goes back to the
first remake - way back then, for a time, there were competing remakes
of "Kong" -- one in development by DeLaurentiis, and one in development
at Universal -- with Universal ultimately shelving their version.

Now, you may wonder -- how is that possible for a movie that's clearly
not in the public domain?

It's possible because there was a novelization of "Kong" when the
original first came out -- and the rights to the movie and the rights
to the novel became separated and thus were independently available.

Universal, way back in the seventies, had acquired the rights to the
book -- thus it was the book, rather than the actual movie upon which
Jackson's movie is actually based.

While book and movie, obviously, have a lot in common, there are
certain differences. The Chinese cook in the original was, as in
Jackson's remake, a character known as "Lumpy."

Also, there's a key omission. There is no scene where Kong attacks an
El train. That's because the decision to include that scene wasn't made
until the movie was essentially finished -- and long after the book had
been completed.

And since they had no rights to the original movie, they couldn't
include sequences that were unique to it, but only material that was
either shared or unique to the book.

Speaking of books and "Kong" -- I've been reading an old "real-life"
travel book called, "The Sea and the Jungle" -- an account of a journey
from England to South America and up the Amazon, published in 1928.

And as I'm reading it, the author describes an incident where the
Engineer is telling him a story, and it starts, "There was this first
mate named Jack Driscoll --"

No way to know for sure, of course, but the book would have been
current at the time that Kong was in pre-production -- it'd be
interesting if this was the source of the first mate's name in "Kong."


NMS
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doktorf

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Since: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:41 pm
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Frederick J. Barnett pointed out:

"TCM showed the original the day before the new movie came.
Denham clearly states in the original that the people living on the
island now have reverted to a more primitive state after building the
wall. Apparently in Jackson's version, they reverted into an even more
primitive culture."

Gosh, you're right. I had forgotten that. Was Denham just guessing
though? Englehorn was supposed to be knoledgeable about cultures
throughout the south seas, but was Denham? Ah, Nevermind.
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Wolf

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Since: Jul 19, 2005
Posts: 28



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:40 pm
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> "TCM showed the original the day before the new movie came.
> Denham clearly states in the original that the people living on the
> island now have reverted to a more primitive state after building the
> wall. Apparently in Jackson's version, they reverted into an even more
> primitive culture."
>
> Gosh, you're right. I had forgotten that. Was Denham just guessing
> though? Englehorn was supposed to be knoledgeable about cultures
> throughout the south seas, but was Denham? Ah, Nevermind.

Well, if you accept that Denham is basically Cooper and Schoedsack is
basically Englehorn... Denham would have known.

--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
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Ray Porter

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Since: May 09, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:10 am
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Good review. I also thought the movie was at least a half hour too long and
agree about which sequences should have been cut to improve the film.

There were a couple of other things I didn't like. First, I didn't like how
Jackson redefined the Carl Denham character. The Robert Armstrong Denham
was basically a likeable character who just go too caught up in his work
sometimes. He'll take chances with his people for the sake of his work but
he won't just callously throw people away for the sake of a few feet of
film. That basic likeability and humanity comes through even more strongly
in "Son of Kong". Armstrong's character was also, by implication, a fairly
successful film maker. His name is well known to members of the audience
when Kong is displayed and he has a solid enough reputation to be trusted by
a casting agent at the beginning. There simply isn't much to like about
Jack Black's character. He's a booze guzzling, professional failure who is
totally selfish and self-absorbed. He doesn't even think about saving a
member of his crew when the choice is between the person and the film.

I also found the Ann Darrow character's obvious infatuation with Kong a
little hard to swallow. The Fay Wray character spent the entire film trying
her best to escape Kong and was obviously terrified of the giant ape. Naomi
Watts' character shows a believable amount of fear early on but soon
develops an unbelievable level of affection for Kong. She sleeps
comfortably in Kong's paw. She goes looking for him when he escapes in New
York rather than trying her best to escape. Heck, she even stands between
Kong and the airplanes on top of the Empire State Building. Overall, I
found the character's attitude towards Kong just too much of a stretch in
the new film.

Lastly, I would have preferred Jackson to keep the non-gorilla like Kong,
just updated with CGI. It seems more reasonable to me that Kong would be a
totally separate species rather than just a big gorilla.

Having said all that, I still enjoyed the film and will certainly add it to
my to collection when the DVD comes out.

Ray Porter
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doktorf

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Since: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:06 pm
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This is actually fascinating. I recently reread the Delos W. Lovelace
novel which I had read once about thirty years ago. It is certainly not
as good as it could have been. If that book had actually existed
seperately from the production of the movie, I couldn't imagine anyone
making a movie of it. The only reason it works at all is that you see
the movie when you are reading it.Merian C. Cooper hired Lovelace to
write it because he didn't have time to write it himself. Cooper
should have hired Edgar Rice Burroughs or Robert E. Howard to
ghostwrite it rather than Lovelace. Could you Imagine an ERB version of
Kong?
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wiz

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Since: Jan 30, 2006
Posts: 11



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:01 am
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Great review. I did enjoy the movie,but,to me, it was 45min. too long.I
think Jackson went overboard on the films running
time.Whereas,TLoftheRs,IMHO was way too short in the theater
release.Maybe he should have just edited Kong for the theater viewing
and added the extras on a extended dvd like he did with LotRs.If he is
true to form,are we looking at a 4hrs extended dvd?
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doktorf

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Since: Dec 18, 2005
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:31 am
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wiz shares with the class:
"Great review. I did enjoy the movie,but,to me, it was 45min. too
long.I
think Jackson went overboard on the films running
time.Whereas,TLoftheRs,IMHO was way too short in the theater
release.Maybe he should have just edited Kong for the theater viewing
and added the extras on a extended dvd like he did with LotRs.If he is
true to form,are we looking at a 4hrs extended dvd? "

I would be suprised if the DVD had an extended cut. As it is, PJ's
King Kong falls just short of being the "Heaven's Gate" of fantasy
films. He has already released what would likely be the biggest special
feature on the delux edition of the DVD as The King Kong Production
Diaries. This is video stuff that appeared on the fan website and is
about two hours of material about the making of the film, as well as a
bunch of essentially worthless stuff like "collectable" items such as
art prints of production drawings and bulky packaging that prevents it
from being shelved with your other DVDs.
There were whole sequences filmed or partially filmed that didn't
make the final cut, and they will no doubt be there, but I would
imagine that they will be deleted scene extras.
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Next Action Hero

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Since: Nov 10, 2005
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:55 pm
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Could you Imagine an ERB version of Kong?

And its follow-up, Tarzan on Skull Island?
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Next Action Hero

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Posts: 3



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:58 pm
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I would have preferred Jackson to keep the non-gorilla like Kong,
just updated with CGI. It seems more reasonable to me that Kong would be a
totally separate species rather than just a big gorilla.

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly. Just look at the Joe DeVito artwork on
Kong: King of Skull Island.
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Wolf

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:28 pm
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> Could you Imagine an ERB version of Kong?
>
> And its follow-up, Tarzan on Skull Island?

That would be pretty cool, actually. How would you get him there?

--
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doktorf

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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:19 pm
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Wow. King Kong isn't a real Burroughs like story even with the giant
ape and the dinosaurs. The ERB version would have a lot more to do with
the Skull Island natives.
Carl Denham, a hollywood producer is shipwrecked on mysterious Skull
Island where he comes up against the establishment of the native
religion that sacrifices a perfect virgin to their jungle god on
occasion. By the way, the natives use swords instead of spears, but
Denham worked as a stuntman in his time and is an expert swordsman. A
beautiful native princess is schedualed to be sacrificed to the jungle
god, but Denham comes to her rescue fighting off dozens of natives in
an epic sword battle. He saves the princess and takes her off into the
untamed jungle where they encounter dinosaurs and other horrors from
time's forgotten depths. Denham and the princess are at odds with one
another at first but a growing respect blossoms foirst into friendship
and then into love, but Kong will not be denied his bride. Cornering
the couple a chase begins and Denham gets knocked unconcious when he
runs into a tree. Kong makes off with the princess to amuse himself
with her in unspeakable ways. Denham manages to rescue her and dives
off a clif into a rushing river, but they are persued by the giant ape
to the might gate of the village. Kong tears down the gate and rampages
through the village, but Denham concots a gas bomb from a strange
native spice and sudues Kon. In gratitude, the natives make Denham
their king and he orders them to builsd him a sailing ship in which he
can return to America with his bride and with King Kong in captivity.
End of chapter one.
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