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Since: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)
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"Darkfalz" <darkfalz DeleteThis @xis.com.au> wrote in message
news:btrfv3$acrj6$1@ID-108208.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > But you're denying the value of another's imagination [Peter Jackson's],
>
> Jackson butched Tolkien's vision so that it barely even resembles it
> anymore. The gap between Tolkien's and Jackson's visioned widened with
each
> film to the point where you could barely find how one begat the other.
>
That's a completely idiotic statement, IMHO. All this prattling on about
'themes' and 'vision'. Changes were made to bring the story to the screen,
the story remains the same. Example: just because the Rohirrim were
attacked by Wargs and Aragorn fell over a cliff doesn't mean the 'vision'
was ruined.
Seriously, if the Warg attack and Aragorn over the cliff episode were IN the
book, would you read that chapter and groan and say "I can't believe Tolkien
wrote this part, the rest of the book was so good." I doubt it.
Gregg C. |
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Since: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Badabing" <bada DeleteThis @boom.com> wrote in message
news:BC298F45.6617F%bada@boom.com...
> in article 5a557b92.0401130350.4493814c DeleteThis @posting.google.com, One-White-Tree
> at j_west_moreland DeleteThis @hotmail.com wrote on 13/1/04 11:50 AM:
>
> I have read that apparently the moment when Theoden runs along his front
> line troops, clattering his sword against their spears, was not in the
book?
> That moment was awesome, as was the 'DEEEAAAATH' cry.
>
Bernard Hill thought that up. I liked it. The cry of 'DEATH' as the group
wasn't directly from the book, but we do have Eomer (after he found Eowyn
and though she was dead):
" 'Éowyn, Éowyn!' he cried at last: 'Éowyn, how come you here? What madness
or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'
Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the
City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a
horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice
calling: 'Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!' "
Gregg C. |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:07:17 +0000, waltonic wrote:
> "Darkfalz" <
>> > But you're denying the value of another's imagination [Peter
>> > Jackson's],
>>
>> Jackson butched Tolkien's vision so that it barely even resembles it
>> anymore. The gap between Tolkien's and Jackson's visioned widened with
> each
>> film to the point where you could barely find how one begat the other.
>
> No. Jackson didn't butcher Tolkien's vision [I don't doubt he butchered
> your own version of that vision] - he just made a film out of it, and a
> film has very different concerns to an epic novel.
>
> Perhaps this thread could be re-titled, "Scenes that are better in the
> book than in Tolkien's head", because there's no doubt that Tolkien had to
> compromise his vision of Middle Earth to turn it into a novel [otherwise
> there - perhaps - wouldn't have been a word of English in it]; Peter
> Jackson has merely made similar, necessary edits to turn it into a film.
This is one of the most intelligent points made about the problems of
book vs movie. Thank you. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:38 am
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Gregg Cattanach" <gcattanach-SKIP-.DeleteThis@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<NGXMb.8672$0g7.691@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Darkfalz" <darkfalz.DeleteThis@xis.com.au> wrote in message
> news:btrfv3$acrj6$1@ID-108208.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > But you're denying the value of another's imagination [Peter Jackson's],
> >
> > Jackson butched Tolkien's vision so that it barely even resembles it
> > anymore. The gap between Tolkien's and Jackson's visioned widened with
> each
> > film to the point where you could barely find how one begat the other.
> >
>
> That's a completely idiotic statement, IMHO. All this prattling on about
> 'themes' and 'vision'. Changes were made to bring the story to the screen,
> the story remains the same. Example: just because the Rohirrim were
> attacked by Wargs and Aragorn fell over a cliff doesn't mean the 'vision'
> was ruined.
>
> Seriously, if the Warg attack and Aragorn over the cliff episode were IN the
> book, would you read that chapter and groan and say "I can't believe Tolkien
> wrote this part, the rest of the book was so good." I doubt it.
Forget it. They'll never admit that their judgement of any scene is
clouded by the fact that it wasn't in the book, even when people post
laundry lists of problems claiming to judge the movies *as movies*,
and EVERY single criticism is of an added scene that wasn't in the
book. People just usually don't admit their prejudices and
preconceptions -- you have to argue them out of it scene by scene
(except for the scenes that are truly problematic, and there are a
few).
DB. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dogger_blue DeleteThis @yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
news:eed9768b.0401141138.64a7ebdc@posting.google.com:
>
> Forget it. They'll never admit that their judgement of any scene
> is clouded by the fact that it wasn't in the book, even when
> people post laundry lists of problems claiming to judge the movies
> *as movies*, and EVERY single criticism is of an added scene that
> wasn't in the book. People just usually don't admit their
> prejudices and preconceptions -- you have to argue them out of it
> scene by scene (except for the scenes that are truly problematic,
> and there are a few).
Out of interest, google for 'rotk first thoughts', and read my comments
on the film. Would you describe me as a film fanatic, or a text
fanatic?
--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9470CF632A0A8jimlaker2yahoocom DeleteThis @130.133.1.4>...
> dogger_blue DeleteThis @yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
> news:eed9768b.0401141138.64a7ebdc@posting.google.com:
> >
> > Forget it. They'll never admit that their judgement of any scene
> > is clouded by the fact that it wasn't in the book, even when
> > people post laundry lists of problems claiming to judge the movies
> > *as movies*, and EVERY single criticism is of an added scene that
> > wasn't in the book. People just usually don't admit their
> > prejudices and preconceptions -- you have to argue them out of it
> > scene by scene (except for the scenes that are truly problematic,
> > and there are a few).
>
> Out of interest, google for 'rotk first thoughts', and read my comments
> on the film. Would you describe me as a film fanatic, or a text
> fanatic?
I think I remember reading that thread, and you are definitely not the
type of poster I was speaking about. I haven't seen you as being
particularly 'fanatic' in either direction by my definition, though I
seem to remember you being quite critical of the films in several
cases ... nothing wrong with that. I'm critical of the movies in
certain cases too (even though I am a big fan), but my opinion of the
things that don't work cinematically isn't *magically coincidentally*
IDENTICAL to the list of deviations from the book. That's just too
much to swallow from someone *along* with a claim that they are just
considering the movies *as movies* (if all they're griping about is
adaptation issues then it's less odd).
DB. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:44 am
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dogger_blue.DeleteThis@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
news:eed9768b.0401142234.72a5cf23@posting.google.com:
> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns9470CF632A0A8jimlaker2yahoocom.DeleteThis@130.133.1.4>...
>> dogger_blue.DeleteThis@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
>> news:eed9768b.0401141138.64a7ebdc@posting.google.com:
>> >
>> > Forget it. They'll never admit that their judgement of any
>> > scene is clouded by the fact that it wasn't in the book, even
>> > when people post laundry lists of problems claiming to judge
>> > the movies *as movies*, and EVERY single criticism is of an
>> > added scene that wasn't in the book. People just usually don't
>> > admit their prejudices and preconceptions -- you have to argue
>> > them out of it scene by scene (except for the scenes that are
>> > truly problematic, and there are a few).
>>
>> Out of interest, google for 'rotk first thoughts', and read my
>> comments on the film. Would you describe me as a film fanatic,
>> or a text fanatic?
>
> I think I remember reading that thread, and you are definitely not
> the type of poster I was speaking about. I haven't seen you as
> being particularly 'fanatic' in either direction by my definition,
> though I seem to remember you being quite critical of the films in
> several cases ... nothing wrong with that.
It's just that I've been accused of being a movie fanatic on more than
one occasion, which puzzles me.
> I'm critical of the
> movies in certain cases too (even though I am a big fan), but my
> opinion of the things that don't work cinematically isn't
> *magically coincidentally* IDENTICAL to the list of deviations
> from the book. That's just too much to swallow from someone
> *along* with a claim that they are just considering the movies *as
> movies* (if all they're griping about is adaptation issues then
> it's less odd).
I'm in favour of thought out and argued criticisms, and treating the
director the same as the author. My bugbear is where someone
criticises Jackson for a fault that Tolkien is equally guilty of, yet
is not aware of or even worse, unwilling to admit this parity.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9471459933CC1jimlaker2yahoocom.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>...
> dogger_blue.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
> news:eed9768b.0401142234.72a5cf23@posting.google.com:
> > Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<Xns9470CF632A0A8jimlaker2yahoocom.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>...
> >> dogger_blue.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in
> >> news:eed9768b.0401141138.64a7ebdc@posting.google.com:
> >> >
> >> > Forget it. They'll never admit that their judgement of any
> >> > scene is clouded by the fact that it wasn't in the book, even
> >> > when people post laundry lists of problems claiming to judge
> >> > the movies *as movies*, and EVERY single criticism is of an
> >> > added scene that wasn't in the book. People just usually don't
> >> > admit their prejudices and preconceptions -- you have to argue
> >> > them out of it scene by scene (except for the scenes that are
> >> > truly problematic, and there are a few).
> >>
> >> Out of interest, google for 'rotk first thoughts', and read my
> >> comments on the film. Would you describe me as a film fanatic,
> >> or a text fanatic?
> >
> > I think I remember reading that thread, and you are definitely not
> > the type of poster I was speaking about. I haven't seen you as
> > being particularly 'fanatic' in either direction by my definition,
> > though I seem to remember you being quite critical of the films in
> > several cases ... nothing wrong with that.
>
> It's just that I've been accused of being a movie fanatic on more than
> one occasion, which puzzles me.
>
>
> > I'm critical of the
> > movies in certain cases too (even though I am a big fan), but my
> > opinion of the things that don't work cinematically isn't
> > *magically coincidentally* IDENTICAL to the list of deviations
> > from the book. That's just too much to swallow from someone
> > *along* with a claim that they are just considering the movies *as
> > movies* (if all they're griping about is adaptation issues then
> > it's less odd).
>
> I'm in favour of thought out and argued criticisms, and treating the
> director the same as the author. My bugbear is where someone
> criticises Jackson for a fault that Tolkien is equally guilty of, yet
> is not aware of or even worse, unwilling to admit this parity.
Yeah, isn't that a gas? I love it when someone says something like,
"WTF is up with the Eagles? Why din't they just fly to the Ring to Mt.
Doom? Peter Jackson is a hack he couldn't adapt a paper bag!" That
just makes my day, actually, I'm just thinking, ooo, time to sit back
and watch the feathers fly! People who lampoon themselves so cleanly
are a gift from the gods of USENET.
DB. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:43 pm
Post subject: Re: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Badabing <bada.TakeThisOut@boom.com> wrote:
>OK I know a lot of Tolkien readers delight in trashing the movies, but are
>there any scenes in the films that exceeded your expectations, based on
>reading the books. Scenes that made you think, 'wow, it was great to see
>that on screen, I never thought of it like that before.'
I don't know of any scene's that are better. Some of the sets and
scenery are better in the movie than my imagination. For example, I
didn't visualize Rivendell with such an open architecture making it
more a part of the surrounding rather than separate from it. I also
thought the Uruks looked more fierce than I imagined them.
Brian >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Brian Mason wrote:
> Badabing <bada.TakeThisOut@boom.com> wrote:
>
>
>>OK I know a lot of Tolkien readers delight in trashing the movies, but are
>>there any scenes in the films that exceeded your expectations, based on
>>reading the books. Scenes that made you think, 'wow, it was great to see
>>that on screen, I never thought of it like that before.'
>
>
> I don't know of any scene's that are better. Some of the sets and
> scenery are better in the movie than my imagination. For example, I
> didn't visualize Rivendell with such an open architecture making it
> more a part of the surrounding rather than separate from it.
This, I believe, comes through Alan Lee from an original JRRT drawing. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Een Wilde Ier <theusual RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>Brian Mason wrote:
>
>> Badabing <bada RemoveThis @boom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OK I know a lot of Tolkien readers delight in trashing the movies, but are
>>>there any scenes in the films that exceeded your expectations, based on
>>>reading the books. Scenes that made you think, 'wow, it was great to see
>>>that on screen, I never thought of it like that before.'
>>
>>
>> I don't know of any scene's that are better. Some of the sets and
>> scenery are better in the movie than my imagination. For example, I
>> didn't visualize Rivendell with such an open architecture making it
>> more a part of the surrounding rather than separate from it.
>
>This, I believe, comes through Alan Lee from an original JRRT drawing.
Well, I guess that is not too surprising. PJ really saved a lot of
pre-production work when he signed on Alan Lee and John Howe.
Brian >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: uk>media>films (more info?)
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but why didn't they just fly to Mt. Doom on an eagle?
> Yeah, isn't that a gas? I love it when someone says something like,
> "WTF is up with the Eagles? Why din't they just fly to the Ring to Mt.
> Doom? Peter Jackson is a hack he couldn't adapt a paper bag!" That
> just makes my day, actually, I'm just thinking, ooo, time to sit back
> and watch the feathers fly! People who lampoon themselves so cleanly
> are a gift from the gods of USENET.
>
> DB. >> Stay informed about: LOTR: Scenes that are better in the films than in the book? |
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