Chaplin and Milt Gross

On Aug 26, 3:39 pm, MaltyDog <malty....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 4:11 am, uk rick <ler....RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > I have been trying to find some information, and hoped that someone on
> > the list may be able to help.
>
> > I have read in a number of biographies, reference books, introductions
> > and web-pages that Milt Gross, the cartoonist and writer, worked on
> > the production of the film; however, all of these sources seem hazy
> > about specific dates and none are clear about exactly what he may have
> > contributed to the production. Gross's name doesn't appear in the
> > credits of any release of the film I have seen (or, for instance, on
> > the IMDB - although I am always slightly dubious of their "cast and
> > crew listings complete" assurances), nor have I seen him mentioned in
> > the Chaplin books I have to hand.
>
> > Can anyone confirm or deny Gross's presence during the production of
> > the film, or clarify what his involvement may have been? I would be
> > most grateful for any information or suggestions for further research.
>
> > Many thanks,
>
> > Lance Rickman, UK
>
> This was posted in SilentComedians.com this weekend:
>
> http://www.silentcomedians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=519

It's hard to answer when this post doesn't indicate what film Gross
supposedly worked on. But I don't recall ever reading any such
thing, so I'm wondering what "numerous" books, etc., the poster is
referring to.

Connie K.
 >> Stay informed about: Chaplin and Milt Gross 

On Sep 7, 4:58 pm, "constance.kuriy...@ttu.edu"
<constance.kuriy... RemoveThis @ttu.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 3:39 pm, MaltyDog <malty... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 26, 4:11 am, uk rick <ler... RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi All,
>
> > > I have been trying to find some information, and hoped that someone on
> > > the list may be able to help.
>
> > > I have read in a number of biographies, reference books, introductions
> > > and web-pages that Milt Gross, the cartoonist and writer, worked on
> > > the production of the film; however, all of these sources seem hazy
> > > about specific dates and none are clear about exactly what he may have
> > > contributed to the production. Gross's name doesn't appear in the
> > > credits of any release of the film I have seen (or, for instance, on
> > > the IMDB - although I am always slightly dubious of their "cast and
> > > crew listings complete" assurances), nor have I seen him mentioned in
> > > the Chaplin books I have to hand.
>
> > > Can anyone confirm or deny Gross's presence during the production of
> > > the film, or clarify what his involvement may have been? I would be
> > > most grateful for any information or suggestions for further research.
>
> > > Many thanks,
>
> > > Lance Rickman, UK
>
> > This was posted in SilentComedians.com this weekend:
>
> >http://www.silentcomedians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=519
>
> It's hard to answer when this post doesn't indicate what film Gross
> supposedly worked on. But I don't recall ever reading any such
> thing, so I'm wondering what "numerous" books, etc., the poster is
> referring to.
>
> Connie K.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Connie,

Apologies to you and the group - the relevant info somehow fell off
the subject line when originally posting. The Chaplin production I was
asking about was "The Circus" (as indicated in the news clipping), and
Gross's involvement would have been early in production or pre-
production, sometime in 1927.

The "numerous books" etc I referred to are those on Gross, not,
significantly, on Chaplin. Gross's connection with The Circus is
mentioned as part of the cartoonist's biography in practically all
entries on him in encyclopedias and general reference, (see. for
example, the 1959 edition of "The Dictionary of American Biography",
p262), and nearly always makes an appearance in the publisher's
descriptions, introductions or blurbs of reprints of his book
collections (see, for example, the book description of "He Done Her
Wrong" at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Done-Her-Wrong-Milt-Gross/dp/1560976942).
The info also appears in dozens of web articles and general web pages,
(example at http://www.askart.com/askart/artist.aspx?artist=26713) but
unless the information has been otherwise attributed, I always assume
it to have been picked up from other, and possibly incorrect, text
entries. (Many online articles appear to have been derived, for
instance, from Ron Goulart's comprehensive but famously error-riddled
"Encyclopedia of American Comics")

There is a certain amount of evidence that Gross may have been
involved in some way; he had connections in Hollywood from his
animation days and certainly contributed scripts (and probably
uncredited "fixes") on several movies. He also made trips there while
hawking several different versions of scripts based on his collection
"Nize Baby". He also appears to have been friendly with Chaplin (at
the time and in later life), which doesn't seem likely if he had for
some reason claimed credit for something that was Chaplin's alone.

The article linked by Maltydog seems not only to confirm his
involvement, but indicates a professional arrangement, with Gross
being hired as ideas man. A snippet from "The Bookman" magazine from
(I think) September 1925, about the exodus of comic strip artists to
Hollywood to work as ideas men, also includes a specific mention that
Gross had "answered the call" of Chaplin, suggesting that he had been
specifically summoned, rather than just happening to be around at the
time. What is particularly interesting in the Hartford Courant article
is the early description of the tightrope sequence, which doesn't yet
involve Chaplin being clambered over by the monkeys - a motif that it
has been said originated in Chaplin's anxiety dreams during his
personal troubles at the time. This would comply with a version of
events where Gross devised the basic situation, which Chaplin later
elaborated and refined into the chaotic sequence we see in the
finished version.

Lastly, if Gross did collaborate on gag ideas for the film, it is
hardly surprising to find no confirmation from Chaplin, who jealously
guarded his "sole creator" status throughout his career. If, however,
anyone knows of a source that could shed further light on the matter,
I would be most grateful to hear from them, on or off list. Are
payroll and payment records for the production still in existence, for
instance?

Best,

Lance, UK
 >> Stay informed about: Chaplin and Milt Gross 

On Sep 8, 4:18 am, uk rick <ler... RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sep 7, 4:58 pm, "constance.kuriy...@ttu.edu"
>
>
>
> <constance.kuriy... RemoveThis @ttu.edu> wrote:
> > On Aug 26, 3:39 pm, MaltyDog <malty... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 26, 4:11 am, uk rick <ler... RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi All,
>
> > > > I have been trying to find some information, and hoped that someone on
> > > > the list may be able to help.
>
> > > > I have read in a number of biographies, reference books, introductions
> > > > and web-pages that Milt Gross, the cartoonist and writer, worked on
> > > > the production of the film; however, all of these sources seem hazy
> > > > about specific dates and none are clear about exactly what he may have
> > > > contributed to the production. Gross's name doesn't appear in the
> > > > credits of any release of the film I have seen (or, for instance, on
> > > > the IMDB - although I am always slightly dubious of their "cast and
> > > > crew listings complete" assurances), nor have I seen him mentioned in
> > > > the Chaplin books I have to hand.
>
> > > > Can anyone confirm or deny Gross's presence during the production of
> > > > the film, or clarify what his involvement may have been? I would be
> > > > most grateful for any information or suggestions for further research.
>
> > > > Many thanks,
>
> > > > Lance Rickman, UK
>
> > > This was posted in SilentComedians.com this weekend:
>
> > >http://www.silentcomedians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=519
>
> > It's hard to answer when this post doesn't indicate what film Gross
> > supposedly worked on. But I don't recall ever reading any such
> > thing, so I'm wondering what "numerous" books, etc., the poster is
> > referring to.
>
> > Connie K.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi Connie,
>
> Apologies to you and the group - the relevant info somehow fell off
> the subject line when originally posting. The Chaplin production I was
> asking about was "The Circus" (as indicated in the news clipping), and
> Gross's involvement would have been early in production or pre-
> production, sometime in 1927.
>
> The "numerous books" etc I referred to are those on Gross, not,
> significantly, on Chaplin. Gross's connection with The Circus is
> mentioned as part of the cartoonist's biography in practically all
> entries on him in encyclopedias and general reference, (see. for
> example, the 1959 edition of "The Dictionary of American Biography",
> p262), and nearly always makes an appearance in the publisher's
> descriptions, introductions or blurbs of reprints of his book
> collections (see, for example, the book description of "He Done Her
> Wrong" athttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Done-Her-Wrong-Milt-Gross/dp/1560976942).
> The info also appears in dozens of web articles and general web pages,
> (example athttp://www.askart.com/askart/artist.aspx?artist=26713) but
> unless the information has been otherwise attributed, I always assume
> it to have been picked up from other, and possibly incorrect, text
> entries. (Many online articles appear to have been derived, for
> instance, from Ron Goulart's comprehensive but famously error-riddled
> "Encyclopedia of American Comics")
>
> There is a certain amount of evidence that Gross may have been
> involved in some way; he had connections in Hollywood from his
> animation days and certainly contributed scripts (and probably
> uncredited "fixes") on several movies. He also made trips there while
> hawking several different versions of scripts based on his collection
> "Nize Baby". He also appears to have been friendly with Chaplin (at
> the time and in later life), which doesn't seem likely if he had for
> some reason claimed credit for something that was Chaplin's alone.
>
> The article linked by Maltydog seems not only to confirm his
> involvement, but indicates a professional arrangement, with Gross
> being hired as ideas man. A snippet from "The Bookman" magazine from
> (I think) September 1925, about the exodus of comic strip artists to
> Hollywood to work as ideas men, also includes a specific mention that
> Gross had "answered the call" of Chaplin, suggesting that he had been
> specifically summoned, rather than just happening to be around at the
> time. What is particularly interesting in the Hartford Courant article
> is the early description of the tightrope sequence, which doesn't yet
> involve Chaplin being clambered over by the monkeys - a motif that it
> has been said originated in Chaplin's anxiety dreams during his
> personal troubles at the time. This would comply with a version of
> events where Gross devised the basic situation, which Chaplin later
> elaborated and refined into the chaotic sequence we see in the
> finished version.
>
> Lastly, if Gross did collaborate on gag ideas for the film, it is
> hardly surprising to find no confirmation from Chaplin, who jealously
> guarded his "sole creator" status throughout his career. If, however,
> anyone knows of a source that could shed further light on the matter,
> I would be most grateful to hear from them, on or off list. Are
> payroll and payment records for the production still in existence, for
> instance?
>
> Best,
>
> Lance, UK

Certainly records for the production are extant. Biographers such
as David Robinson and Jeffrey Vance had access to them, and if you
have some scholarly purpose in mind you can get access to them
as well. You can find information about this at the official Chaplin
website.
But if there is evidence in them of a substantial contribution made
by
Gross to _The Circus_, I imagine we would have heard about it.

I'm wondering why you think that Gross might have had input
specifically
on the tightrope sequence, and especially on the presence of monkeys
in the sequence, since there are many comic episodes in the film..

Chaplin did of course consult with other people on story ideas, a fact
which
he specifically confirms in one of the interviews reproduced in
_Charlie Chaplin
Interviews_. I don't know of any case where a *major* contribution to
a
Chaplin film was used in substantially its original form without being
acknowledged in one way or another.

It is hard to sort out elements in the creative process. All artists
make
use of material from a variety of sources, including the work of other
artists. Nearly all of them regard the finished product as their own,
since
they decide what to use and give it their own personal stamp.

How could one prove that Gross contributed in some way to the
tightrope
sequence, and why does it matter?

Some of the same questions arise in the case of Vincent Bryan, who was
on Chaplin's payroll off and on in the late teens. I doubt that it is
possible to
identify any specific contribution Bryan made to Chaplin's Mutuals,
except his
appearances as an extra, though he may well have made some.

Connie K.
 >> Stay informed about: Chaplin and Milt Gross