Modern Times on TCM question

>"WaverBoy" waverboyNOSPAM DeleteThis @comcast.net wrote:

>Yep. Unfortunately, this version is now the "official" version.

Blasphemy....how depressing. What is wrong with those Chaplin kids anyway?


Deborah

"The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
-Mark Twain
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

dzubeg.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Deborah) wrote in message news:<20030801100754.00758.00000616.TakeThisOut@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> >"WaverBoy" waverboyNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >Yep. Unfortunately, this version is now the "official" version.
>
> Blasphemy....how depressing. What is wrong with those Chaplin kids anyway?
>
>
> Deborah
>
> "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
> -Mark Twain

Ahem!

My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version
by
Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
David could clarify this.

Connie K.
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"Constance Kuriyama" <ckuriyam.DeleteThis@ttacs.ttu.edu> wrote in message
news:2bac2741.0308012237.56b866c9@posting.google.com...
> dzubeg.DeleteThis@aol.com (Deborah) wrote in message
news:<20030801100754.00758.00000616.DeleteThis@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> > >"WaverBoy" waverboyNOSPAM.DeleteThis@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > >Yep. Unfortunately, this version is now the "official" version.
> >
> > Blasphemy....how depressing. What is wrong with those Chaplin kids
anyway?
> >
> >
> > Deborah
> >
> > "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
> > -Mark Twain
>
> Ahem!
>
> My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version
> by
> Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
> to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
> David could clarify this.

We're not arguing about the officiality of this version. At least I'm not.
I'm just saying I like the version with the final verse of the song better.
Chaplin's children have the authority to put their offical stamp on whatever
version they choose, and I have the authority to choose for myself which
version I prefer. :-)
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"WaverBoy" <waverboyNOSPAM DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message news:<y8ecnU56c4M4cbaiXTWJhg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
> "Constance Kuriyama" <ckuriyam DeleteThis @ttacs.ttu.edu> wrote in message
> news:2bac2741.0308012237.56b866c9@posting.google.com...
> > dzubeg DeleteThis @aol.com (Deborah) wrote in message
> news:<20030801100754.00758.00000616 DeleteThis @mb-m25.aol.com>...
> > > >"WaverBoy" waverboyNOSPAM DeleteThis @comcast.net wrote:
>
> > > >Yep. Unfortunately, this version is now the "official" version.
> > >
> > > Blasphemy....how depressing. What is wrong with those Chaplin kids
> anyway?
> > >
> > >
> > > Deborah
> > >
> > > "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
> > > -Mark Twain
> >
> > Ahem!
> >
> > My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version
> > by
> > Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
> > to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> > disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
> > David could clarify this.
>
> We're not arguing about the officiality of this version. At least I'm not.
> I'm just saying I like the version with the final verse of the song better.
> Chaplin's children have the authority to put their offical stamp on whatever
> version they choose, and I have the authority to choose for myself which
> version I prefer. :-)

We both have that option thanks to the Chaplin estate. I happen to
like the last verse too, so in this case we apparently agree that
sometimes material Chaplin didn't include in his original release
versions is at least as good as material he did include. One of my
personal favorites in this category is
the medical exam footage that was not included in _Shoulder Arms_.

Connie K.
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"Constance Kuriyama" <ckuriyam.TakeThisOut@ttacs.ttu.edu> wrote in message
news:2bac2741.0308022007.9075b4e@posting.google.com...
> "WaverBoy" <waverboyNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<y8ecnU56c4M4cbaiXTWJhg.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...
> > "Constance Kuriyama" <ckuriyam.TakeThisOut@ttacs.ttu.edu> wrote in message
> > news:2bac2741.0308012237.56b866c9@posting.google.com...
> > > dzubeg.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Deborah) wrote in message
> > news:<20030801100754.00758.00000616.TakeThisOut@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> > > > >"WaverBoy" waverboyNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > > > >Yep. Unfortunately, this version is now the "official" version.
> > > >
> > > > Blasphemy....how depressing. What is wrong with those Chaplin kids
> > anyway?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Deborah
> > > >
> > > > "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is
laughter."
> > > > -Mark Twain
> > >
> > > Ahem!
> > >
> > > My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version
> > > by
> > > Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
> > > to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> > > disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
> > > David could clarify this.
> >
> > We're not arguing about the officiality of this version. At least I'm
not.
> > I'm just saying I like the version with the final verse of the song
better.
> > Chaplin's children have the authority to put their offical stamp on
whatever
> > version they choose, and I have the authority to choose for myself which
> > version I prefer. :-)
>
> We both have that option thanks to the Chaplin estate.

Well, they let David Shepard put out that version on the old Image DVD, but
including the verse as an extra in the new DVD doesn't count, so, no thanks
to them on the new one. I'm glad I've got the old one. :-)

I happen to
> like the last verse too, so in this case we apparently agree that
> sometimes material Chaplin didn't include in his original release
> versions is at least as good as material he did include.

Definitely!

One of my
> personal favorites in this category is
> the medical exam footage that was not included in _Shoulder Arms_.
>
> Connie K.

Connie, I too LOVE that footage, as well as the previous footage with
Charlie's large unseen wife. In fact, I may like those two scenes more than
any of the scenes that DID make it into SHOULDER ARMS, at least the
reconstruction of it anyway. I'd love to lay eyes on that original print
that D. Shepard saw...
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:

>Ahem!
>
>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
>David could clarify this.

My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most recent
airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about the
original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut. The
"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.


Deborah

"The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
-Mark Twain
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

>From: dzubeg.RemoveThis@aol.com (Deborah)

>>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
>
>>Ahem!
>>
>>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
>>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
>>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
>>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
>>David could clarify this.
>
>My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most recent
>airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about the
>original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut. The
>"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
>
From a post last month in a.m.c.:
<< It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>

Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I assembled
the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in 1953
which were intact.

David Shepard
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"RFCSAC627N" <rfcsac627n.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030803162453.24610.00000966@mb-m28.aol.com...
> >From: dzubeg.DeleteThis@aol.com (Deborah)
>
> >>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
> >
> >>Ahem!
> >>
> >>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
> >>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
> >>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> >>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
> >>David could clarify this.
> >
> >My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most
recent
> >airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about
the
> >original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut.
The
> >"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
> >
> From a post last month in a.m.c.:
> << It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>
>
> Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I
assembled
> the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in
1953
> which were intact.
>
> David Shepard

Again, straight from the Shepard's mouth. This verse was in the film for
TWENTY YEARS before it was cut out. Both versions should be available; one
for the sake of "officialness", and the other for the sake of FILM HISTORY,
as this is the version that was originally released to great acclaim and
enjoyed by millions worldwide. Deborah, I hope you find the uncut DVD.
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"WaverBoy" <waverboyNOSPAM DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Iuadne6yP9Jp57CiU-KYgw DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
> "RFCSAC627N" <rfcsac627n DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030803162453.24610.00000966@mb-m28.aol.com...
> > >From: dzubeg DeleteThis @aol.com (Deborah)
>
> > >>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
>
> > >>Ahem!
> > >>
> > >>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
> > >>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
> > >>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> > >>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
> > >>David could clarify this.
> > >
> > >My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most
> recent
> > >airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about
> the
> > >original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut.
> The
> > >"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
> > >
> > From a post last month in a.m.c.:
> > << It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>
> >
> > Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I
> assembled
> > the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in
> 1953
> > which were intact.
> >
> > David Shepard
>
> Again, straight from the Shepard's mouth. This verse was in the film for
> TWENTY YEARS before it was cut out. Both versions should be available; one
> for the sake of "officialness", and the other for the sake of FILM HISTORY,
> as this is the version that was originally released to great acclaim and
> enjoyed by millions worldwide. Deborah, I hope you find the uncut DVD.

And once again, the words "straight from the Shepard's mouth" are
potentially misinterpreted. Just as in the case of the "Chaplin
disappointment" comment made by David S regarding the 'Rollie'
versions of the FNs, which many here misinterpreted, you seem to be
running away with a possible meaning which may not actually be
supported by Shepard's statement. Shepard says the extra verse came
from "fine grain masters manufactured in 1953."

What he does NOT say is whether those fine grains necessarily
represent the content of release prints used from the film's original
release through the time the '53 fine grains were produced and used as
sources for the '56 releases.
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

Deborah (dzubeg@aol.com) writes:
>>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
>
>>Ahem!
>>
>>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
>>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
>>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
>>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
>>David could clarify this.
>
> My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most recent
> airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about the
> original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut. The
> "punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
>
>
> Deborah
>
> "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter."
> -Mark Twain

Which VHS version do you have?

I have the CBS/Fox, which is the only one I know of, and the pawnbroker
verse is not there. Nor, to the best of my recollection, is it on the
laser disk. It first appeared on the DVD, and according to the story I
heard, it was an accidental discovery. TV screenings in recent years were
probably all based on the DVD.

I agree that the last verse supplies a better punchline. But the estate
has in this case decided that the original release version (without the
last verse) is official, since that was Chaplin's edit.

Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

RFCSAC627N (rfcsac627n@aol.com) writes:
>>From: dzubeg.DeleteThis@aol.com (Deborah)
>
>>>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
>>
>>>Ahem!
>>>
>>>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
>>>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
>>>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
>>>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
>>>David could clarify this.
>>
>>My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most recent
>>airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about the
>>original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut. The
>>"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
>>
> From a post last month in a.m.c.:
> << It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>
>
> Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I assembled
> the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in 1953
> which were intact.
>
> David Shepard

Thanks for clarifying this!

Then it was presumably there in '36, and the CBS/Fox VHS was based on the
re-release version--which is the only version I ever saw before the DVD.

I would defend some of Chaplin's re-release cuts, but even if he did this for
the sake of economy or pacing, it wasn't one of his better moves.


Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"David Totheroh" <dtotheroh.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:31dd3eaa.0308031746.29de7b22@posting.google.com...
> "WaverBoy" <waverboyNOSPAM.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<Iuadne6yP9Jp57CiU-KYgw.RemoveThis@comcast.com>...
> > "RFCSAC627N" <rfcsac627n.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20030803162453.24610.00000966@mb-m28.aol.com...
> > > >From: dzubeg.RemoveThis@aol.com (Deborah)
> >
> > > >>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
> >
> > > >>Ahem!
> > > >>
> > > >>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version
by
> > > >>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it
happened
> > > >>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
> > > >>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official.
Maybe
> > > >>David could clarify this.
> > > >
> > > >My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the
most
> > recent
> > > >airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure
about
> > the
> > > >original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be
cut.
> > The
> > > >"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
> > > >
> > > From a post last month in a.m.c.:
> > > << It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>
> > >
> > > Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I
> > assembled
> > > the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in
> > 1953
> > > which were intact.
> > >
> > > David Shepard
> >
> > Again, straight from the Shepard's mouth. This verse was in the film
for
> > TWENTY YEARS before it was cut out. Both versions should be available;
one
> > for the sake of "officialness", and the other for the sake of FILM
HISTORY,
> > as this is the version that was originally released to great acclaim and
> > enjoyed by millions worldwide. Deborah, I hope you find the uncut DVD.
>
> And once again, the words "straight from the Shepard's mouth" are
> potentially misinterpreted. Just as in the case of the "Chaplin
> disappointment" comment made by David S regarding the 'Rollie'
> versions of the FNs, which many here misinterpreted, you seem to be
> running away with a possible meaning which may not actually be
> supported by Shepard's statement. Shepard says the extra verse came
> from "fine grain masters manufactured in 1953."
>
> What he does NOT say is whether those fine grains necessarily
> represent the content of release prints used from the film's original
> release through the time the '53 fine grains were produced and used as
> sources for the '56 releases.

And once again, David Totheroh is splitting hairs. My comment about the
verse being in the film for twenty years before it was cut out stands.
That's all I was really trying to say by "straight from the Shepard's
mouth", because others on this board thought that it was cut at or before
the time of its original release. He said, in response to a statement that
said the verse was cut out before release, "Ummm, contrary to the above, it
was cut for the 1956 re-release." Which any sane person would interpret as,
no, it wasn't cut before its release, it was cut for the re-release. Which
means that IT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL RELEASE VERSION OF THE FILM. If you've a
different interpretation than that, I'd like to read it. No, I mean one
that makes logical sense. You're right, I suppose the '53 fine grains could
differ somehow from the 1936 release in some other way, and, if so, then it
would be nice if the real actual '36 could be released for the sake of film
history, if it exists.
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question 

"WaverBoy" (waverboyNOSPAM@comcast.net) writes:
> "RFCSAC627N" <rfcsac627n.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030803162453.24610.00000966@mb-m28.aol.com...
>> >From: dzubeg.RemoveThis@aol.com (Deborah)
>>
>> >>ckuriyam@ttacs.ttu.edu (Constance Kuriyama) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Ahem!
>> >>
>> >>My understanding is that this verse was cut from the release version by
>> >>Chaplin, and that it was included in the Image DVD because it happened
>> >>to be in the excellent source material David Shepard used for that
>> >>disk. If so, the version without the verse is indeed official. Maybe
>> >>David could clarify this.
>> >
>> >My VHS version has that verse, and any time on TV, other than the most
> recent
>> >airing on TCM, I believe the verse has been included. Are you sure about
> the
>> >original release? It makes no sense for the end of the story to be cut.
> The
>> >"punkawalla" diamond is the big punchline.
>> >
>> From a post last month in a.m.c.:
>> << It was cut out before release probably for flow issue >>
>>
>> Ummm, contrary to the above, it was cut for the 1956 re-release. I
> assembled
>> the 1992 laserdisc edition from two fine grain masters manufactured in
> 1953
>> which were intact.
>>
>> David Shepard
>
> Again, straight from the Shepard's mouth. This verse was in the film for
> TWENTY YEARS before it was cut out. Both versions should be available; one
> for the sake of "officialness", and the other for the sake of FILM HISTORY,
> as this is the version that was originally released to great acclaim and
> enjoyed by millions worldwide. Deborah, I hope you find the uncut DVD.

She has a good chance of finding it on Ebay.

In the case of _Modern Times_, what else was cut besides that one verse
of the song? Nothing comes to mind. If that's all, I'd be inclined to
think that _Modern Times_ was perfect as it was, that Chaplin was having
an off day when he decided to cut the last verse, and that only one version,
with the last verse of the song restored, would be necessary.

_The Gold Rush_, on the other hand, exists in such different forms that
we need both. As for _The Kid_, I'd prefer the re-release cut, with
the additional scenes as extras, for no reason in particular except that
I think the later cut is better--*and* has an excellent score.

Decisions based on considered aesthetic judgments are harder to justify,
but just saying that the criterion should be Chaplin's last cut *or* his
original release cut doesn't hack it either. What we want, surely, is
the version that shows Chaplin's art to best advantage.

Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
 >> Stay informed about: Modern Times on TCM question