|
Related Topics:
| Recording Room Tone, Use Normal Gain or High Gain??? - I'm a hobby sound guy and I have been asked to help out with a student film maker. We will be filming / recording some dialog indoors and I the practice of recording room tone for later editing. The recorder is a Nagra 4.2. Is..
Lectrosonics 201 - no pilot tone???? - Hi, I think one of my 201 receivers needs some work. I can't get pilot tone from either of my 2 but when I tune the to the other receiver I get pilot tone without a problem. I've tried lots of and even moved to..
Lectro Pilot tone lost... - I have a 211 setup, and today something weird happened. I had the units switched on, and saw a full RF signal listed on the screen, however, the pilot tone signal was blinking, and no audio. I hit the Pilot bypass, and the audio sounds horrible, muffled..
"Proper" tone levels for video - Looking for the proper tone levels to send out for video, mainly Betacam, DVCpro, and DVCAM. Each format and brand is a little some cameras don't even have a numbered scale, just white and red tick marks. Thanks
Could be handy... - Found this , could be very handy to have with you on any set.. R --
|
|
|
Next: Movie Sounds: showreels and website
|
| Author |
Message |
External
Since: May 31, 2004
Posts: 512
|
(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:57 am
Post subject: Room Tone?
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)
|
|
|
This goes out the the Randy Thoms on the group (thats the new generic term
for very experienced post production soundmen<g>. Much like Kleenex or
Q-tip.)
I was just told by a local post sound friend that he still has trouble, even
in this day of Avid, cutting a scene if enough room tone isn't provided. In
the analog days (read: mag stock and Nagra), I use to fight hard for RT
because I knew that the editors would need a longer piece to cut up to cover
the cuts. Then I was told, in the day of the Avid, that it was so easy to
make a loop from some tone in the scene, that RT was un-necessary. Now I
know that somewhere in between the two is the real story, but I find that
there are only a few RT on my log in a show anymore. Well, the ADs love
that, and let's face it, how good is the tone that they finally give you at
the end of the scene; grips are wrapping stands "quietly" in the BG, the
rain has gone away and the birds have awoken. I still "fight" for the
occasional specific tone, rain on the roof, specific wide-band bg noise that
I know can't be clipped. But how about those every-day locations? You
know. The bedroom, the front porch, the park? Is it still a necessary idea
(I almost said "good" but I know what you posties would say to that<g>) to
have it out with the AD over 30 seconds of almost always un-usable tone?
And don't tell me to get it earlier in the scene. You bug 'em about that
and your on-set life will go to hell!
Just a thought.
D. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 | |
External
Since: Dec 14, 2003
Posts: 1625
|
(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Douglas Tourtelot" <tourtelot RemoveThis @nospanspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:BpSdnYV3C_1yWrvZRVn-qw@speakeasy.net...
> This goes out the the Randy Thoms on the group (thats the new generic term
> for very experienced post production soundmen<g>. Much like Kleenex or
> Q-tip.)
>
> I was just told by a local post sound friend that he still has trouble,
> even in this day of Avid, cutting a scene if enough room tone isn't
> provided. In the analog days (read: mag stock and Nagra), I use to fight
> hard for RT because I knew that the editors would need a longer piece to
> cut up to cover the cuts. Then I was told, in the day of the Avid, that
> it was so easy to make a loop from some tone in the scene, that RT was
> un-necessary. Now I know that somewhere in between the two is the real
> story, but I find that there are only a few RT on my log in a show
> anymore. Well, the ADs love that, and let's face it, how good is the tone
> that they finally give you at the end of the scene; grips are wrapping
> stands "quietly" in the BG, the rain has gone away and the birds have
> awoken. I still "fight" for the occasional specific tone, rain on the
> roof, specific wide-band bg noise that I know can't be clipped. But how
> about those every-day locations? You know. The bedroom, the front porch,
> the park? Is it still a necessary idea (I almost said "good" but I know
> what you posties would say to that<g>) to have it out with the AD over 30
> seconds of almost always un-usable tone? And don't tell me to get it
> earlier in the scene. You bug 'em about that and your on-set life will go
> to hell!
What if we tried to push an entirely different ideology about RT. During pre
production one gets agreement that PRIOR to beginning a scene the set is
silenced both for grabbing RT and for finding out if there are any remaining
noise sources which can be eliminated. This could also be sold as a sort of
moment of focus for all involved...kind of a silent "last looks." The
advantage of course is that if the background sound changes during the
scene, one already has the original background and the opportunity to get
additional background for the new noise problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 757
|
(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:02 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
A longer chunk of roomtone is alway more useful, in that almost any
piece of sound recorded on a set w/ actors and crew there will have
small noises that become "melodic" when the section is looped.
Roomtone is alike a fire extinguisher--kind of ugly and in the way
until you need it, and then you REALLY need it. I've been a sound
editor behind some picture editors who would routinely cherry pick the
dialog lines they liked for a scene and leave big holes in between
them, expecting me to find or make a roomtone or ambiance that would
blend with the BG of the lines. This is very tough w/o roomtone. On
the doc series I work on there was a lot of resistance and misinformed
pushback from DPs and producers about roomtone until I waved our
network contract at them, pointing out the paragraph that states that
we have to provide workable fill tracks for all the interviews etc.
It's still a struggle even then. In the case of an off camera dialog
read or a sound effect, the roomtone is vital, especially if there is a
unique BG sound going on (car interior, rain, traffic etc).
Philip Perkins >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 10, 2004
Posts: 979
|
(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
> This goes out the the Randy Thoms on the group (thats the new generic term
> for very experienced post production soundmen<g>. Much like Kleenex or
> Q-tip.)
>
> I was just told by a local post sound friend that he still has trouble, even
> in this day of Avid, cutting a scene if enough room tone isn't provided. In
> the analog days (read: mag stock and Nagra), I use to fight hard for RT
> because I knew that the editors would need a longer piece to cut up to cover
> the cuts. Then I was told, in the day of the Avid, that it was so easy to
> make a loop from some tone in the scene, that RT was un-necessary. Now I
> know that somewhere in between the two is the real story, but I find that
> there are only a few RT on my log in a show anymore. Well, the ADs love
> that, and let's face it, how good is the tone that they finally give you at
> the end of the scene; grips are wrapping stands "quietly" in the BG, the
> rain has gone away and the birds have awoken. I still "fight" for the
> occasional specific tone, rain on the roof, specific wide-band bg noise that
> I know can't be clipped. But how about those every-day locations? You
> know. The bedroom, the front porch, the park? Is it still a necessary idea
> (I almost said "good" but I know what you posties would say to that<g>) to
> have it out with the AD over 30 seconds of almost always un-usable tone?
> And don't tell me to get it earlier in the scene. You bug 'em about that
> and your on-set life will go to hell!
>
> Just a thought.
>
> D.
>
>
Not being a Randy Thom but just another front-line soundie, I know that the idea
that you can just loop roomtone is pretty much a myth. Tone changes over time,
so the beginning and end of the take don't usually loop well. You have to do all
kinds of stuff to the track, changing levels and eq to make the front sound like
the back, or double the track and reverse it in the middle, etc, to make it loop
without hearing a "whump" or the like at the junction. I really wish we could
find a way to educate ADs that yes, it really is important. On "Postcards From
Buster," a children's TV series that I just wrapped for the season, an animated
character has first-person interactions with kids. The DP or director or I will
play the part of "Buster," asking questions or responding one way or another.
Besides the fact that there can be NO overlaps, we have to get tone -every-
place Buster speaks, to provide a sonic landscape for the character [actor in
the booth in Toronto] to speak into. Sometimes, due to the documentary style, we
have to get it immediately after a particular line of dialog, to preserve
whatever changing sonic geography that might be being expressed at the moment
[car/plane/train going by, etc]. After 2 years some of the directors still don't
get it, and production has made some bad mistakes by hiring a couple of crews
that don't get this, and post is having nightmares.
John >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 20, 2005
Posts: 68
|
(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
I have been very fortunate to be working with a crew (small but good) who
understand roomtone and its necessity (I give full credit to the soundie I
replaced, he educated them over 2 years of shooting)
I like the on camera people to finish their segment (or scene) and let RT
run for 30 seconds sans interruptions. Then we can go back to position 1
and grab a little there. This helps to "trail the sound off" if we had a
fly-by, drive-by or similar, instead of an abrupt cut.
Works well in my situation.
-Jason
"G. John Garrett, C.A.S" <jg.RemoveThis@soundcartREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:FoKdnep8us4AUbvZRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
>
>> This goes out the the Randy Thoms on the group (thats the new generic
>> term for very experienced post production soundmen<g>. Much like Kleenex
>> or Q-tip.)
>>
>> I was just told by a local post sound friend that he still has trouble,
>> even in this day of Avid, cutting a scene if enough room tone isn't
>> provided. In the analog days (read: mag stock and Nagra), I use to fight
>> hard for RT because I knew that the editors would need a longer piece to
>> cut up to cover the cuts. Then I was told, in the day of the Avid, that
>> it was so easy to make a loop from some tone in the scene, that RT was
>> un-necessary. Now I know that somewhere in between the two is the real
>> story, but I find that there are only a few RT on my log in a show
>> anymore. Well, the ADs love that, and let's face it, how good is the
>> tone that they finally give you at the end of the scene; grips are
>> wrapping stands "quietly" in the BG, the rain has gone away and the birds
>> have awoken. I still "fight" for the occasional specific tone, rain on
>> the roof, specific wide-band bg noise that I know can't be clipped. But
>> how about those every-day locations? You know. The bedroom, the front
>> porch, the park? Is it still a necessary idea (I almost said "good" but
>> I know what you posties would say to that<g>) to have it out with the AD
>> over 30 seconds of almost always un-usable tone? And don't tell me to get
>> it earlier in the scene. You bug 'em about that and your on-set life
>> will go to hell!
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> D.
> Not being a Randy Thom but just another front-line soundie, I know that
> the idea that you can just loop roomtone is pretty much a myth. Tone
> changes over time, so the beginning and end of the take don't usually loop
> well. You have to do all kinds of stuff to the track, changing levels and
> eq to make the front sound like the back, or double the track and reverse
> it in the middle, etc, to make it loop without hearing a "whump" or the
> like at the junction. I really wish we could find a way to educate ADs
> that yes, it really is important. On "Postcards From Buster," a children's
> TV series that I just wrapped for the season, an animated character has
> first-person interactions with kids. The DP or director or I will play the
> part of "Buster," asking questions or responding one way or another.
> Besides the fact that there can be NO overlaps, we have to get
> tone -every- place Buster speaks, to provide a sonic landscape for the
> character [actor in the booth in Toronto] to speak into. Sometimes, due to
> the documentary style, we have to get it immediately after a particular
> line of dialog, to preserve whatever changing sonic geography that might
> be being expressed at the moment [car/plane/train going by, etc]. After 2
> years some of the directors still don't get it, and production has made
> some bad mistakes by hiring a couple of crews that don't get this, and
> post is having nightmares.
>
> John >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 141
|
(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 130
|
(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
At my level, I'm usually the most experienced one on the set so there
has yet to be anyone, AD or director, who challenges me on much of
anything, much less room tone. This is one of the perks, if not the
only perk, of working below the line. Certainly the product
endorsements aren't pouring in.
Looping roomtone is definitely not a myth (although I took John to mean
that it can be difficult and problematic, not non-existent). In the
old days of mag and 1/4 tape, I worked doing transfer for Dane Davis
and I listened to and transferred a lot of production tracks. I also
ran a lot of loops for the dialogue editors (who always needed it done
right then) and sometimes those loops were quite short - short enough
to be a challenge getting onto the dubber, which required a loop of mag
to be at least a foot or two in order to even thread onto the machine.
I ran many loops of that size so, clearly, they were getting it where
they could find it and, if necessary, a two or three or five foot loop
(meaning only a couple/few seconds) sometimes meant the difference
between a track that worked and one that didn't. Even in the
non-linear world I'm sure they're still grabbing it where they can,
although they no longer have to loop it and no longer get to enjoy the
convivial atmosphere of a transfer room staffed by me. >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 1489
|
(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
I ones spocked seriously with one of the best dialog editors here about room
tones and he told me that he almost not use my room tones- they are grate
but they dont match ,so
he prefer chop small pieces from the production dialog , mix it together ,
loop and make one which match more presiseth one during the shots.
so since then I run 30-sec on rush locations just to keep my image as one
hard sound buster , for critical changes like rain or stormy weather I
insist to take the room tone after the problem accrue since usually in the
end you finish it without and with the plain in the sky - the Murphy low :-)
i also insist on long tails ( camera stop ) if we have traffic problems to
help a little bit for dialog cuts .
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
"Philip Perkins" <spamiser RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143396172.544279.303510@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A longer chunk of roomtone is alway more useful, in that almost any
> piece of sound recorded on a set w/ actors and crew there will have
> small noises that become "melodic" when the section is looped.
> Roomtone is alike a fire extinguisher--kind of ugly and in the way
> until you need it, and then you REALLY need it. I've been a sound
> editor behind some picture editors who would routinely cherry pick the
> dialog lines they liked for a scene and leave big holes in between
> them, expecting me to find or make a roomtone or ambiance that would
> blend with the BG of the lines. This is very tough w/o roomtone. On
> the doc series I work on there was a lot of resistance and misinformed
> pushback from DPs and producers about roomtone until I waved our
> network contract at them, pointing out the paragraph that states that
> we have to provide workable fill tracks for all the interviews etc.
> It's still a struggle even then. In the case of an off camera dialog
> read or a sound effect, the roomtone is vital, especially if there is a
> unique BG sound going on (car interior, rain, traffic etc).
>
> Philip Perkins
> >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 25
|
(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:38 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
there are times when the roomtone on set just isn't very pretty
sounding... maybe too many buzzing lights, etc...(if that is the case,
then i ask for the lights off, but still, sometimes it is just too
noisy)
i'd say that half the time with indoor scenes i end up noise reducing
the roomtone out entirely (or almost entirely) and replacing it with
one i like. call me crazy, but it works.
that said, one of the best sounding roomtones i ever recorded on set
was in an apartment in the lower east side (nyc) on a light rainy
evening. i've ended up using it in a couple different projects
already.
i sometimes think it is just as important to get ambient sound for
exterior scenes and for interior ones. >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 130
|
(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:43 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 06, 2006
Posts: 693
|
(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:54 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:55:49 -0500, Charles Tomaras wrote
(in article <RsOdnYOSNNVRSLvZnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>):
>
> What if we tried to push an entirely different ideology about RT. During pre
> production one gets agreement that PRIOR to beginning a scene the set is
> silenced both for grabbing RT and for finding out if there are any remaining
> noise sources which can be eliminated. This could also be sold as a sort of
> moment of focus for all involved...kind of a silent "last looks." The
> advantage of course is that if the background sound changes during the
> scene, one already has the original background and the opportunity to get
> additional background for the new noise problem.
I like it!
Ty
-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 757
|
(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
gregsextro RemoveThis @hotmail.com wrote:
> there are times when the roomtone on set just isn't very pretty
> sounding... maybe too many buzzing lights, etc...(if that is the case,
> then i ask for the lights off, but still, sometimes it is just too
> noisy)
>
> i'd say that half the time with indoor scenes i end up noise reducing
> the roomtone out entirely (or almost entirely) and replacing it with
> one i like. call me crazy, but it works.
>
> that said, one of the best sounding roomtones i ever recorded on set
> was in an apartment in the lower east side (nyc) on a light rainy
> evening. i've ended up using it in a couple different projects
> already.
>
> i sometimes think it is just as important to get ambient sound for
> exterior scenes and for interior ones.
What you are talking about is an ambient sound effect, usable in many
situations, like your rain sound. I'm talking exactly about those
buzzing lights, nearby generators, HMI ballasts etc etc--the real
steady-state background sound of that particular scene w/o the actors
or anyone else talking or moving around. A short (30 sec min)
recording of that background can really make the difference in selling
the edit of a scene made up of material from many different takes as a
continuous reality in the finished movie, all the more so if there is
no or little music and no other BG sound motivated by what we see in
the shots. In a large scale feature there are always ways and labor
available to fix this w/o roomtone, but in a documentary or an indie
movie it can mean the difference between a scene that seems to flow
naturally and one that has numerous audio distractions as the audio BG
changes across cuts.
Philip Perkins >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Aug 02, 2003
Posts: 125
|
(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
gregsextro RemoveThis @hotmail.com wrote:
>there are times when the roomtone on set just isn't very pretty
>sounding... maybe too many buzzing lights, etc...(if that is the case,
>then i ask for the lights off, but still, sometimes it is just too
>noisy)
>
>i'd say that half the time with indoor scenes i end up noise reducing
>the roomtone out entirely (or almost entirely) and replacing it with
>one i like. call me crazy, but it works.
>
>that said, one of the best sounding roomtones i ever recorded on set
>was in an apartment in the lower east side (nyc) on a light rainy
>evening. i've ended up using it in a couple different projects
>already.
>
>i sometimes think it is just as important to get ambient sound for
>exterior scenes and for interior ones.
>
>
>
That nasty stuff, in my limited post experience was just as important as
clean stuff in filling holes, and smoothing a dialogue track, and then
adding other ambiences' and forms of noise reduction to sweeten it.
Also, re, ext vs int, I just lazily call it Room Tone wherever we are,
and of course any location has a character that is great to be able to
provide clean of props fx, crew noise and dialogue. I think most of the
time these days we should call it "set noise". When I first started, I
would ask the continuity person how long is the scene, and try to get a
track that long....
Sometimes I actually got it. But a clean 30sec is about as much as we'll
get these days, sometimes 10.
BTW, if Charlie's proposed method was the accepted way to go, we would
be able to present the best possible RT in most circumstances, I think.
Then, ideally if a new noise comes up we just grab 10 sec or so. Most
AD's and directors are hip to the "new noise" thing. Also, I always try
to keep the director informed about how critical some extra sound can be
to get us the scene.
When things are really tight, I use the concept John Coffey mentioned-
Camera stops quietly, nobody moves until I yell out "Sound's cut!" It
can get some RT you were having a real hassle trying to get the time
alotted.
Jim Rillie >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 16, 2004
Posts: 96
|
(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
I am not a sound mixer for motion pictures, but have an idea. Maybe it
would make sense to have a pre-printed form with all of the varaibles
involved in the project that you can fill out with key crew members
before the very first take. It is kind of nerdy, but it could provide
a clear discussion outline and resulting document for clarity.
Hello Doug from George Griswold in New Orleans. >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 10, 2004
Posts: 979
|
(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Room Tone? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Douglas Tourtelot wrote:
> Thanks. Good info. It is a Sysiphian task to get it as we all know.
Good one. I always said Sysiphistic :-p
John >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
FAQ
Search
Profile
Private Messages
Log in/Register/Password
