Room Tone?

Ty Ford wrote:
> Absolutely. I just did a video edit of an actor's on camera demo. Once piece
> was from an indie. Conversation back and forth across a desk in a doctor's
> office. Each time they flipped you could really hear the change in room tone.
> Totally distracting for me, but I had to point it out to a lot of people.
>
> Ears and hearing are weird and very subjective. We do sound because we hear
> in ways that other people don't. Don't take it for granted.

However, I contend that most, if not all, viewers react internally to
such changes. They may not be able to describe why it didn't "feel"
right (like we can) but it still affects the impact of the film -- even
if they're not consciously aware of it. It'll feel more like a low/no
budget movie if the audio is amateurish -- even if the viewer can't
identify the differences.

John Blankenship, C.A.S.
Indianapolis
(email: my initials at mw daht net)


 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

"John Blankenship" <"John Blankenship"> wrote in message
news:44299ba3$0$7328$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net...
> Ty Ford wrote:
>> Absolutely. I just did a video edit of an actor's on camera demo. Once
>> piece was from an indie. Conversation back and forth across a desk in a
>> doctor's office. Each time they flipped you could really hear the change
>> in room tone. Totally distracting for me, but I had to point it out to a
>> lot of people.
>>
>> Ears and hearing are weird and very subjective. We do sound because we
>> hear in ways that other people don't. Don't take it for granted.
>
> However, I contend that most, if not all, viewers react internally to such
> changes. They may not be able to describe why it didn't "feel" right
> (like we can) but it still affects the impact of the film -- even if
> they're not consciously aware of it. It'll feel more like a low/no budget
> movie if the audio is amateurish -- even if the viewer can't identify the
> differences.
>
> John Blankenship, C.A.S.

Absolutely. From time to time clients ask to see a rough cut of a project.
I try to avoid it, but sometimes they insist. You can look around the
conference table and see the discomfort. When asked for reactions, they
often --- eventually ---- ask if the final product will "sound like that".
I have to assure them that no sound sweetening has been done, no music
added, etc. But, it takes real work to get them to admit that it is the
sound track that bothers them, rarely the pictures.

Steve King
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

avid DeleteThis @xs4all.nl wrote:
> 29-03-2006 19:29 "gregsextro@gmail.com" :
>
>
> > on a side note - none of the picture editors i've worked with take the
> > time to cut roomtone into a scene...
>
> This one does. If available. I even have a stack of standard room ambiences
> on my system for filling up and smoothing out scenes. "Real" room tone is
> better, though.
>

Bless you, on behalf of audio post people everywhere.

Philip Perkins
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

avid RemoveThis @xs4all.nl wrote:
> 29-03-2006 19:29 "gregsextro@gmail.com" :
>
>
> > on a side note - none of the picture editors i've worked with take the
> > time to cut roomtone into a scene...
>
> This one does. If available. I even have a stack of standard room ambiences
> on my system for filling up and smoothing out scenes. "Real" room tone is
> better, though.
>
> --
> Job ter Burg
> film editor - NL

You might be the only one! In my 15 years of mixing for TV (or perhaps
I should say the 10-12 years of getting OMFs) I have only had one
editor edit in any room tone, and unfortunately it was the same 20
seconds looped over and over throughout the entire show regardless of
the scene.

-Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

Doesn't the type of production warrant the type of room tone? I've
been thinking about this a lot lately. I ask because I am doing more
and more television work where they pump the music up in that loud
rock/in-your-face/home improvement style. I question whether it is
worth getting room tone when there is a constant barrage of heavy metal
running behind all the dialog. This effectively masks almost any audio
drop-outs in room tone in the background. And, considering how often
it is just a bunch of wireless mics, there is less of the room being
picked up anyway. Don't get me wrong, it is totally needed in films
and even more so on Indie films where there is no budget to wank with
the audio in post, but it is just a thought to consider. If you are
working on a TV interview, obviously room tone is less of an issue.
Sometimes if helps to know when to make a big deal out of it and when
to pick your battles.

I just wish every field producer would sign a statement that says
something like, "The sound guy always told me when there was a problem
with audio. If there are any problems, I take full responsibility for
having said, 'It is okay, let's just go with it. We don't have time to
wait on that (train, plane, helicopter, siren, chainsaw, lawnmower,
nuclear bomb, dog).'" Of course, this will never happen.

A friend of mine does a lot of post work for the cable channels, and
often complains about not having any room tone or ambience to work
with. It occured to me that the problem may lie with what he is given.
It is usually whatever the video editor has pieced together from the
tapes. So, even if I give someone some excellent room tone, it will
never make it to the audio post engineer, because they only get the
"pertinent" audio to the flow of the show. In other words, a bunch of
tape with audio only will not be a part of the visual edit. As a
result, the ambience and room tone is still sitting somewhere on a tape
in the video editor's suite when the OMF is sent to the audio post guy
across the country somewhere. I would be surprised if the room tone
was ever even digitized from the original tapes.

Just a few thoughts. I am done now.

-Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

Room Tone is the bit between "Quiet on the set" and first dialogue ;-)

There is no substitute, Especially if a reverse camera angle has a
piece of noisy machinery switched off,


--
Roland Morris
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

<matt RemoveThis @gorillasound.com> wrote in message
news:1143789985.850141.216180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Doesn't the type of production warrant the type of room tone? I've
> been thinking about this a lot lately. I ask because I am doing more
> and more television work where they pump the music up in that loud
> rock/in-your-face/home improvement style. I question whether it is
> worth getting room tone when there is a constant barrage of heavy metal
> running behind all the dialog. This effectively masks almost any audio
> drop-outs in room tone in the background. And, considering how often
> it is just a bunch of wireless mics, there is less of the room being
> picked up anyway. Don't get me wrong, it is totally needed in films
> and even more so on Indie films where there is no budget to wank with
> the audio in post, but it is just a thought to consider. If you are
> working on a TV interview, obviously room tone is less of an issue.
> Sometimes if helps to know when to make a big deal out of it and when
> to pick your battles.
>
> I just wish every field producer would sign a statement that says
> something like, "The sound guy always told me when there was a problem
> with audio. If there are any problems, I take full responsibility for
> having said, 'It is okay, let's just go with it. We don't have time to
> wait on that (train, plane, helicopter, siren, chainsaw, lawnmower,
> nuclear bomb, dog).'" Of course, this will never happen.
>
> A friend of mine does a lot of post work for the cable channels, and
> often complains about not having any room tone or ambience to work
> with. It occured to me that the problem may lie with what he is given.
> It is usually whatever the video editor has pieced together from the
> tapes. So, even if I give someone some excellent room tone, it will
> never make it to the audio post engineer, because they only get the
> "pertinent" audio to the flow of the show. In other words, a bunch of
> tape with audio only will not be a part of the visual edit. As a
> result, the ambience and room tone is still sitting somewhere on a tape
> in the video editor's suite when the OMF is sent to the audio post guy
> across the country somewhere. I would be surprised if the room tone
> was ever even digitized from the original tapes.
>
> Just a few thoughts. I am done now.
>
> -Matt

Having been one of those producers who has from time to time said, "It's
okay, let's just get on with it," (hopefully in a more thoughtful way than
that) I'd point out that I always remember that it was me that made the
call. But, Matt's comments about not having room tone at the stage of
production where it is really needed, really struck home. Happened to me a
few days ago in a sweetening and 'scoring' session. Room tone was still
back at the video editor's shop on the original tapes. We worked around it.
It occurred to me then that for some productions it would be worth it to
take the time to digitize all room tone tracks and burn them to a CD to have
for the audio & music session. It's one thing to develop a work flow to
make that happen for a production that, essentially, I control from start to
finish. I don't know how it could best be handled, when responsibilities
are more compartmentalized on larger productions.

Steve King
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

Steve King wrote:
> Having been one of those producers who has from time to time said, "It's
> okay, let's just get on with it," (hopefully in a more thoughtful way than
> that) I'd point out that I always remember that it was me that made the
> call. But, Matt's comments about not having room tone at the stage of
> production where it is really needed, really struck home. Happened to me a
> few days ago in a sweetening and 'scoring' session. Room tone was still
> back at the video editor's shop on the original tapes. We worked around it.
> It occurred to me then that for some productions it would be worth it to
> take the time to digitize all room tone tracks and burn them to a CD to have
> for the audio & music session. It's one thing to develop a work flow to
> make that happen for a production that, essentially, I control from start to
> finish. I don't know how it could best be handled, when responsibilities
> are more compartmentalized on larger productions.

This will be easier in the future than it has been in the past. As the
world transitions to all non-linear recording, it will become easier to
code the room tone tracks -- either by file name or via metadata, and
still carry the scene number -- then burn those to a separate CD or DVD.

My area of the country languishes entrenched in the DAT world, but that,
too, will change.

John Blankenship, C.A.S.
Indianapolis
(email: my initials at mw daht net)


 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone? 

Re: Room Tone?

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 12:29pm
From: "John Blankenship" (John Blankenship)

My area of the country languishes entrenched in the DAT
world,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Same here and it's wonderful. Never any issues about files, formats,
etc. No one asks for any specific media.

but that, too, will change.<<<<<<<<<<

slowly, very slowly.

Eric


John Blankenship, C.A.S.
Indianapolis
 >> Stay informed about: Room Tone?