SD 442 Question

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Fri, Jul 4, 2003, 9:40pm
(EDT+4) From: h.brad DeleteThis @comcast.net (Brad Harper)

I have a Cooper, so I don't know the answer, but doesn't that waste
allot of headroom? Is this just a meter calibration or are you running
levels that much lower?
Brad Harper
====================================
It's just a meter matching thing so you know what the recorders levels
are. When you have a -2 peak on the mixer it's -2 on the recorder not
-22 as it would be when "0"= -20dbfs.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

It's something I've considered doing, but I've pretty much adapted the habit of
watching the meters on my PD4 anyway. For ENG stuff, I have just adopted the
practice of keeping the levels around 6-10 on the main channel, and 0-4 on the
safety (on the 442meters) and have had fabulous results.
Tom Curley
Happy 4th!
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Fri, Jul 4, 2003, 6:52pm
From: Audioetc RemoveThis @webtv.net (Eric Toline)
Re: SD 442 Question
Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Fri, Jul 4, 2003, 9:40pm
(EDT+4) From: h.brad RemoveThis @comcast.net (Brad Harper)
I have a Cooper, so I don't know the answer, but doesn't that waste
allot of headroom? Is this just a meter calibration or are you running
levels that much lower?
Brad Harper
====================================
It's just a meter matching thing so you know what the recorders levels
are. When you have a -2 peak on the mixer it's -2 on the recorder not
-22 as it would be when "0"= -20dbfs.
Eric
================================
OTOH you could just set the recorder level up 20db to "0" to match the
mixer, you know, just like we do for analog: "0" in "0" out.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Then it would be a very good idea obviously.

Brad


"Eric Toline" <Audioetc DeleteThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17079-3F060520-65@storefull-2314.public.lawson.webtv.net...

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Fri, Jul 4, 2003, 9:40pm
(EDT+4) From: h.brad DeleteThis @comcast.net (Brad Harper)

I have a Cooper, so I don't know the answer, but doesn't that waste
allot of headroom? Is this just a meter calibration or are you running
levels that much lower?
Brad Harper
====================================
It's just a meter matching thing so you know what the recorders levels
are. When you have a -2 peak on the mixer it's -2 on the recorder not
-22 as it would be when "0"= -20dbfs.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Hi Eric,

I like your idea of using -20 for output tone level and matching the
level to
-20db on the digital scale of the recorder/videotape. But it does
raise some questions for me.

Where do you set your limiter? how does that correlate to the overal
gain structure of the 442, are you riding the levels too low and not
taking advantage of the the low S/N of the unit?

just out of curiousity where do you set the lineups for Analog? -0db
i would assume. How about the limiter level?

john gooch
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

I would personally rather send out a 0dbu tone out at the mixer ..
and turn the pots at the camera
to a certain point to reach -20db at the camera.
Then send out a -20db tone at the mixer..and having to crank up the pots
at the camera way higher to achieve the same -20 reading at the camera
meters.
But hey..thats just me.

Chris Ripper


"john gooch" <jgoochmixer RemoveThis @mac.com> wrote in message
news:9ac86569.0307052025.460c55cc@posting.google.com...
> Hi Eric,
>
> I like your idea of using -20 for output tone level and matching the
> level to
> -20db on the digital scale of the recorder/videotape. But it does
> raise some questions for me.
>
> Where do you set your limiter? how does that correlate to the overal
> gain structure of the 442, are you riding the levels too low and not
> taking advantage of the the low S/N of the unit?
>
> just out of curiousity where do you set the lineups for Analog? -0db
> i would assume. How about the limiter level?
>
> john gooch
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sat, Jul 5, 2003, 9:25pm
(EDT-3) From: jgoochmixer.RemoveThis@mac.com (john gooch)

Hi Eric,
I like your idea of using -20 for output tone level and matching the
level to -20db on the digital scale of the recorder/videotape. But it
does raise some questions for me.

Where do you set your limiter?<<<<<<

Mine are set to kick in at +16 although for the type of tracks I do they
never have to work.

how does that correlate to the overal gain structure of the 442, are you
riding the levels too low and not taking advantage of the the low S/N of
the unit?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Not that I've found. The only crevat is that you can't go over the "0"
point on the mixer. I would much rather have matching meters than have
to run dialog at + 10 on a mixer so you have -10 on the recorder.

If you're concerned about cranking up the input levels on cameras & any
noise it might add, send a "0" tone to the camera, lay bars & tone at
-20dbfs then turn up the cam levels to show "0", instant matching
meters.



just out of curiousity where do you set the lineups for Analog? -0db i
would assume.<<<<<<<

Right, I come from the analog school of recording where all the meters
matched all the time. Makes life easier that way, no mental math
adjustments required. WYSIWYG


How about the limiter level?<<<<<<<<

Again limiters are not a factor in my work but for analog I would set
the limiters at +3 over "0".

Eric

john gooch
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sun, Jul 6, 2003, 4:31am
(EDT+4) From: chris.ripper.TakeThisOut@verizon.net (Chris Ripper)
I would personally rather send out a 0dbu tone out at the mixer .. and
turn the pots at the camera
to a certain point to reach -20db at the camera. Then send out a -20db
tone at the mixer..and having to crank up the pots at the camera way
higher to achieve the same -20 reading at the camera meters.
But hey..thats just me.
Chris Ripper
================================
Ok, then send your "0" tone to -20 reference level for bars & tone, then
turn the cam level up to get "0" , now you have matching meters with no
loss of s/n. Just don't go over "0" on your mixer.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

>"Eric Toline" <Audioetc.DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:27548-3F07EB80-140@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...

>Ok, then send your "0" tone to -20 reference level for bars & tone, then
>turn the cam level up to get "0" , now you have matching meters with no
>loss of s/n. Just don't go over "0" on your mixer.

>Eric

Eric, are you are equating a 0VU reference to 0 (max) on the camera's
digital level meter? These are two very different uses of "0". I add
"(max)" in parenthesis here because the meters on some digital devices (such
as the Zaxcom Deva and Cameo) use "+20" to indicate maximum and "0" to
indicate where 0VU reference should be. I, for one, prefer this scale
because it reduces confusion about where the 0VU reference should be.

If you line up 0VU out of a mixer to 0 (max) on a digital recorder (either
sound only recorder or cam-corder), then control dialog levels to peak at 0
on a mixer's VU meter, you will seriously overload the recorder. Yet another
example of why "VU" could stand for "Virtually Useless" for recording
original tracks.

A great illustration of this is the dual function metering (simultaneous
peak and VU) on the SD-442. With Peak/VU metering selected, plug in a mic
and turn all limiters off. Bring up the level so that snapping your fingers
causes maximum peaks on the peak meter display. You will see that the VU
display is barely registering even though you are producing maximum levels,
and beyond, as indicated by the peak meter. Then, bring up the level even
more until the finger snaps register 0 on the VU scale, and you'll see that
the actual levels (shown by the peak indicator) of the finger snapping are
off the scale. Yet another example of why "VU" could stand for "Virtually
Useless" for recording original tracks.

Relying on VU meters for monitoring levels going to a digital recorder
without the use of carefully calibrated limiters is very risky and offers no
advantage. Yet another example of why "VU" could stand for "Virtually
Useless" for recording original tracks.

Did I mention that "VU" could stand for "Virtually Useless" for recording
original tracks?

Glen Trew


"Eric Toline" <Audioetc.DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27548-3F07EB80-140@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sun, Jul 6, 2003, 4:31am
(EDT+4) From: chris.ripper.DeleteThis@verizon.net (Chris Ripper)
I would personally rather send out a 0dbu tone out at the mixer .. and
turn the pots at the camera
to a certain point to reach -20db at the camera. Then send out a -20db
tone at the mixer..and having to crank up the pots at the camera way
higher to achieve the same -20 reading at the camera meters.
But hey..thats just me.
Chris Ripper
================================
Ok, then send your "0" tone to -20 reference level for bars & tone, then
turn the cam level up to get "0" , now you have matching meters with no
loss of s/n. Just don't go over "0" on your mixer.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Glen Trew wrote:
>
> the meters on some digital devices (such
> as the Zaxcom Deva and Cameo) use "+20" to indicate maximum and "0" to
> indicate where 0VU reference should be. I, for one, prefer this scale
> because it reduces confusion about where the 0VU reference should be.

What Bob Katz calls K20 metering. Again, I recommend his writing on the
subject (much broader than just sound for picture but well thought out.)
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

If you are sending out a "just dont go over zero" signal.
Im very surprised you dont have issues..either going into the
camera..distortion..
OR...with post after the fact. (see other thread at the moment).

And your idea of setting tone at -20 THEN readusting tone to zero!?!?
I'd like to see an EIC on a trucks expression when he sees a nice normal -20
tone when he
puts in your camera guys tape, then at the end of
tone BAMMMM a SLAMMING level through his truck. I have a feeling he wouldnt
be smiling.

If you are riding levels in the "norm" . -20 average -10 peak...
Your way ..your meters are WAY lower at the mixer...then someone
who does the 0db=-20db

In the end does the meters line up your way? Yes.
Is it the best way to get sound into the camera. My opinion No.

-20db mixer = -20db camera - weaker signal leaving mixer ..hotter levels at
camera. Y+X=Z
0dbmixer=-20db camera - stronger signal leaving mixer.. lower levels at
camera. X+Y=Z

result? Same levels.

Now on a Cinealta..or a D700.. The difference might not be THAT much
...crankin the pots.
On a PD 150..or an XL1 on the other hand..
seems like every twist of the thumb those things are more hiss/and or noise.

I'll personally let my 442 make up the gain..then a PD150.


Chris Ripper









"Eric Toline" <Audioetc.RemoveThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27548-3F07EB80-140@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net...

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sun, Jul 6, 2003, 4:31am
(EDT+4) From: chris.ripper.RemoveThis@verizon.net (Chris Ripper)
I would personally rather send out a 0dbu tone out at the mixer .. and
turn the pots at the camera
to a certain point to reach -20db at the camera. Then send out a -20db
tone at the mixer..and having to crank up the pots at the camera way
higher to achieve the same -20 reading at the camera meters.
But hey..thats just me.
Chris Ripper
================================
Ok, then send your "0" tone to -20 reference level for bars & tone, then
turn the cam level up to get "0" , now you have matching meters with no
loss of s/n. Just don't go over "0" on your mixer.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sun, Jul 6, 2003, 2:55pm
(EDT+4) From: chris.ripper.DeleteThis@verizon.net (Chris Ripper)

If you are sending out a "just dont go over zero" signal. Im very
surprised you dont have issues..either going into the
camera..distortion..
OR...with post after the fact. (see other thread at the moment).
And your idea of setting tone at -20 THEN readusting tone to zero!?!?
I'd like to see an EIC on a trucks expression when he sees a nice normal
-20 tone when he
puts in your camera guys tape, then at the end of tone BAMMMM a SLAMMING
level through his truck. I have a feeling he wouldnt be
smiling.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Unbelievable, you still don't get it. Why would you think the levels on
the tape would be any hotter than normal? You adjust the levels on your
mixer, if you have a signal at say -5 on your mixer then you know it'll
be -5 on the camera and not -25.



If you are riding levels in the "norm" . -20 average -10 peak... Your
way ..your meters are WAY lower at the mixer...then someone who does the
0db=-20db<<<<<<<<<

Nope, either way your mixer meterlevels are the same. It's only that the
recorder levels match yours or not.




In the end does the meters line up your way? Yes. Is it the best way to
get sound into the camera. My opinion No.
-20db mixer = -20db camera - weaker signal leaving mixer ..hotter levels
at camera. Y+X=Z
0dbmixer=-20db camera   - stronger signal leaving mixer.. lower levels
at
camera.     X+Y=Z
result? Same levels.
Now on a Cinealta..or a D700.. The difference might not be THAT much
..crankin the pots.

On a PD 150..or an XL1 on the other hand.. seems like every twist of the
thumb those things are more hiss/and or noise.<<<<<<<

Aha, herein lies the crux of the problem. I've been assuming that you
work with pro cameras, not some toy wannabe camera. I've yet to do a job
where the PD-150/xl-1 & the like are the main camera.


Eric




I'll personally let my 442 make up the gain..then a PD150.
Chris Ripper
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question 

I dont get it? The entire time "I" have to assume you are going pretty darn
hot to that camera..as you say..just
"dont go over zero on the mixer". Thats WAY hotter then the average guy.
(once again see the other thread on
levels currently). THats my ONLY point on THAT part of the disagreement.

Getting to the OTHER part of the disagreement is..
if you ARE..sendin the same kinda levels as "I" personally would.
That gain structure is wacky. Between a -20 and a -10 on the 442?
Sure isnt in my opinion taking advantage of the specs on that mixer.



Simple YES or NO question.
Do you or do you NOT...send out a WEAKER signal when you
are riding -20 at your mixer and I am riding 0db at the same mixer.
Uhhh?

YET...we get the SAME exact levels on tape...Uhh?
Where is that gain made up...UHhh?

As far as your lil snide comment about me working with

" I've been assuming that you
work with pro cameras, not some toy wannabe camera."

In the last month ALONE the digital cameras i've worked with are the
CineAlta (Stars/Encore shoot)...the Panasonic Varicam (political
commercials)
D 700 (commercials)...PD150 AND..XL1 (industrials.etc).

Why on Soundevices own website ..it shows the best gain structure for the
lower ending camera
being 0db=-20. setting the limiter on the 442 to +20.

The good cameras take care of themselves..but If you are saying as a
"general" rule
to do it your way..when people take your advise on the low end cameras
they are asking for more issues.
Why? All because you need to see the same number on both?

Just as another person said in another post.. they know to keep within a
range on the mixer
and they get great results.

Obviously you're not going to budge on this.. And obviously neither am i.

So I give up.

Chris Ripper











"Eric Toline" <Audioetc RemoveThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17080-3F084C23-89@storefull-2314.public.lawson.webtv.net...

Re: SD 442 Question

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Sun, Jul 6, 2003, 2:55pm
(EDT+4) From: chris.ripper RemoveThis @verizon.net (Chris Ripper)

If you are sending out a "just dont go over zero" signal. Im very
surprised you dont have issues..either going into the
camera..distortion..
OR...with post after the fact. (see other thread at the moment).
And your idea of setting tone at -20 THEN readusting tone to zero!?!?
I'd like to see an EIC on a trucks expression when he sees a nice normal
-20 tone when he
puts in your camera guys tape, then at the end of tone BAMMMM a SLAMMING
level through his truck. I have a feeling he wouldnt be
smiling.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Unbelievable, you still don't get it. Why would you think the levels on
the tape would be any hotter than normal? You adjust the levels on your
mixer, if you have a signal at say -5 on your mixer then you know it'll
be -5 on the camera and not -25.



If you are riding levels in the "norm" . -20 average -10 peak... Your
way ..your meters are WAY lower at the mixer...then someone who does the
0db=-20db<<<<<<<<<

Nope, either way your mixer meterlevels are the same. It's only that the
recorder levels match yours or not.




In the end does the meters line up your way? Yes. Is it the best way to
get sound into the camera. My opinion No.
-20db mixer = -20db camera - weaker signal leaving mixer ..hotter levels
at camera. Y+X=Z
0dbmixer=-20db camera - stronger signal leaving mixer.. lower levels
at
camera. X+Y=Z
result? Same levels.
Now on a Cinealta..or a D700.. The difference might not be THAT much
..crankin the pots.

On a PD 150..or an XL1 on the other hand.. seems like every twist of the
thumb those things are more hiss/and or noise.<<<<<<<

Aha, herein lies the crux of the problem. I've been assuming that you
work with pro cameras, not some toy wannabe camera. I've yet to do a job
where the PD-150/xl-1 & the like are the main camera.


Eric




I'll personally let my 442 make up the gain..then a PD150.
Chris Ripper
 >> Stay informed about: SD 442 Question