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Since: Dec 02, 2003 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:08 pm
Post subject: "Secondary" moments in MD Archived from groups: alt>movies>david-lynch (more info?)
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Hello
There are several moments in MD that either don't fit very well with
many popular explanations of the film or have no meaning in the context
of these explanations and, for this reason, are simply ignored by the
authors of these explanations or get more or less distorted in order to
fit better with the proposed theory. It would be great to hear other
people's opinions about the importance of the following portions of the film
1. Betty's sudden disappearance after her return from Club Silencio with
Rita. Note, that's Rita who opens the blue box, not Betty. (I've read a
couple of "explanations" that say that its Betty who opens the box in
the movie, which is clearly an error.) This scene strikes me as very
similar to a scene in "The Lost Highway", when after finding the third
videotape Fred discovers that his wife (who was there just a minute ago)
has suddenly disappeared and is nowhere to be found. Just like Fred,
Rita makes an attempt to find Betty by looking around the apartment. In
case of TLH this is usually seen as an indication that Fred's imaginary
world is quickly falling apart. I wonder what could this (very similar,
in my opinion) sequence mean in MD. Initially I even thought that, just
like in TLH, this scene clearly indicates that we are seeing
Rita/Camilla's dream, not Betty/Diana's dream. However, I could not find
any additional evidence to support this theory, which suggests that in
MD it should probably mean something else.
2. The first scene after the "flight into the box". The box falls on the
carpet making an audible thunk. Aunt-Ruth-looking woman peers into the
room like she heard the sound and came to see what happened. Everything
seems to be in order and there's no box on the floor. Is there any
importance to this sequence? I'm inclined to think that this is a mere
joke intentionally put into the movie - just a funny way to stitch two
parts together.
3. The elderly couple's behavior in the taxi (after parting with Betty
at the airport). They smile and seem to exchange looks full of secret
meaning. What is this supposed to mean and what's the point of having
this sequence in what is presumed to be Diana's dream?
--
Best regards,
Andrey Tarasevich >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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Since: Dec 02, 2003 Posts: 13
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "Secondary" moments in MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Andrey Tarasevich wrote:
>
> There are several moments in MD that either don't fit very well with
> many popular explanations of the film or have no meaning in the context
> of these explanations and, for this reason, are simply ignored by the
> authors of these explanations or get more or less distorted in order to
> fit better with the proposed theory. It would be great to hear other
> people's opinions about the importance of the following portions of the film
>
> 1. Betty's sudden disappearance after her return from Club Silencio with
> Rita. Note, that's Rita who opens the blue box, not Betty. (I've read a
> couple of "explanations" that say that its Betty who opens the box in
> the movie, which is clearly an error.) This scene strikes me as very
> similar to a scene in "The Lost Highway", when after finding the third
> videotape Fred discovers that his wife (who was there just a minute ago)
> has suddenly disappeared and is nowhere to be found. Just like Fred,
> Rita makes an attempt to find Betty by looking around the apartment. In
> case of TLH this is usually seen as an indication that Fred's imaginary
> world is quickly falling apart. I wonder what could this (very similar,
> in my opinion) sequence mean in MD. Initially I even thought that, just
> like in TLH, this scene clearly indicates that we are seeing
> Rita/Camilla's dream, not Betty/Diana's dream. However, I could not find
> any additional evidence to support this theory, which suggests that in
> MD it should probably mean something else.
>
> 2. The first scene after the "flight into the box". The box falls on the
> carpet making an audible thunk. Aunt-Ruth-looking woman peers into the
> room like she heard the sound and came to see what happened. Everything
> seems to be in order and there's no box on the floor. Is there any
> importance to this sequence? I'm inclined to think that this is a mere
> joke intentionally put into the movie - just a funny way to stitch two
> parts together.
Both of these seem to indicate the transition from the dream to reality.
Most of us have experienced the 'double' reality when a dream is still
in progress but we're also beginning to wake up and are aware of both.
> 3. The elderly couple's behavior in the taxi (after parting with Betty
> at the airport). They smile and seem to exchange looks full of secret
> meaning. What is this supposed to mean and what's the point of having
> this sequence in what is presumed to be Diana's dream?
This is more difficult to explain. The way the two actors perform the
brief scene is (deliberately, I'd assume) ambiguous. It's not clear
whether their knowing, mutual smiles are benign and friendly or possibly
somehow malicious. The latter is a possibility when you consider their
role in the movie's finale.
Does anyone know if this scene was in Lynch's original pilot, or was it
added when the pilot eventually morphed into a feature movie?
C. >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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Since: Oct 31, 2003 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:04 am
Post subject: Re: "Secondary" moments in MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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6&¶7|D <trichome.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Qsdzb.4280$t87.4015@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...
> In article <vspvqqr4cjav75.DeleteThis@news.supernews.com>,
> Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
> > 3. The elderly couple's behavior in the taxi (after parting with Betty
> > at the airport). They smile and seem to exchange looks full of secret
> > meaning. What is this supposed to mean and what's the point of having
> > this sequence in what is presumed to be Diana's dream?
>
> First, we saw the (grand)parents supporting Diane's dream Jitterbug
> contest. Later, we saw them emerge from the Bum's bag, to cackle at
<snip>
Infact, the Jitterbug intro sequence doesn't appear to be part of the
dream at all. Between that scene and the scence involving Rita in the
black car there is the falling asleep on the bed scene, which itself
contains flickers of the proud Diane and the old couple. So the old
couple characters at the Jitterbug contest are quite distinct from the
old couple in the dream, and the old couple at the end. They seem to
be real individuals, in a memory, probably Diane's grandparents or
contest organisers or whatever. The old couple in the dream and the
old couple at the end are more similar, and are symbolic of something
in Diane's psyche. They seem to represent her aspirations and
ambition, her naive confidence that was generated by her Jitterbug
win. She thanks them at the airport because she was obviously very
nervous about moving to Hollywood, but they helped her through it.
And as soon as she gets there, they leave, just as her naivete was
shattered on her arrival to the real Hollywood. They take on a
sinister, mocking form in the car. It is deeply hurtful for the
failure Diane to even think about her initial aspirations; these early
hopes and ambitions haunt her. Even though she manages to suppress the
guilt she feels for Rita's death (the agents beating at her door), it
is her past ambition which manages to sneak in, confront her with the
evidence of her failure to Make It Big, and drive her to suicide. >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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Since: Dec 09, 2003 Posts: 10
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: "Secondary" moments in MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Name And Address Supplied wrote:
> 6&¶7|D <trichome.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Qsdzb.4280$t87.4015@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...
>
>>In article <vspvqqr4cjav75.RemoveThis@news.supernews.com>,
>> Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>3. The elderly couple's behavior in the taxi (after parting with Betty
>>>at the airport). They smile and seem to exchange looks full of secret
>>>meaning. What is this supposed to mean and what's the point of having
>>>this sequence in what is presumed to be Diana's dream?
>>
>> First, we saw the (grand)parents supporting Diane's dream Jitterbug
>>contest. Later, we saw them emerge from the Bum's bag, to cackle at
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Infact, the Jitterbug intro sequence doesn't appear to be part of the
> dream at all. Between that scene and the scence involving Rita in the
> black car there is the falling asleep on the bed scene, which itself
> contains flickers of the proud Diane and the old couple. So the old
> couple characters at the Jitterbug contest are quite distinct from the
> old couple in the dream, and the old couple at the end. They seem to
> be real individuals, in a memory, probably Diane's grandparents or
> contest organisers or whatever. The old couple in the dream and the
> old couple at the end are more similar, and are symbolic of something
> in Diane's psyche. They seem to represent her aspirations and
> ambition, her naive confidence that was generated by her Jitterbug
> win. She thanks them at the airport because she was obviously very
> nervous about moving to Hollywood, but they helped her through it.
> And as soon as she gets there, they leave, just as her naivete was
> shattered on her arrival to the real Hollywood. They take on a
> sinister, mocking form in the car. It is deeply hurtful for the
> failure Diane to even think about her initial aspirations; these early
> hopes and ambitions haunt her. Even though she manages to suppress the
> guilt she feels for Rita's death (the agents beating at her door), it
> is her past ambition which manages to sneak in, confront her with the
> evidence of her failure to Make It Big, and drive her to suicide.
No, I don't think ambition kills her. She doesn't manage to surpress her guilt.
It drives her to suicide. (When she sits there staring at the key on the table,
it means guilt is gnawing at her) -doug >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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Since: Oct 31, 2003 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:53 am
Post subject: Re: "Secondary" moments in MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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doug <dugstervision.RemoveThis@nospamearthlink.net> wrote in message news:<B%oBb.5513$_r6.1410@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> Name And Address Supplied wrote:
>
<snip>
> > failure Diane to even think about her initial aspirations; these early
> > hopes and ambitions haunt her. Even though she manages to suppress the
> > guilt she feels for Rita's death (the agents beating at her door), it
> > is her past ambition which manages to sneak in, confront her with the
> > evidence of her failure to Make It Big, and drive her to suicide.
> No, I don't think ambition kills her. She doesn't manage to surpress her
> guilt. It drives her to suicide. (When she sits there staring at the
> key on the table,it means guilt is gnawing at her) -doug
Guilt is gnawing at her, yes. But I don't think that that is really
what kills her. The old couple are laughing, mocking - that doesn't
seem like the embodiment of guilt to me. Surely they represent her
failure. >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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Since: Feb 24, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: "Secondary" moments in MD [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>Back to MD:
> It's worth examining how the audio works in that scene as Betty
>arrives at the airport. Soaring music, natural-seeming audio that is
>really unnatural when you separate out what she is hearing (diegetic,
>within the story) and the sounds we the audience hear (swelling music
>outside the story).
Having seen MD over and over, I often wondered why it is that Naomi Watts
overacts so hugely in the goodbye-scene at the airport. We all know Lynch well
enough to see that this is intentional. However, if there's any connection
between this and the two old folks in the limo making obscene faces at each
other, that beats me!
Kind regards,
Baldrick >> Stay informed about: "Secondary" moments in MD |
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