Shooting 24fps to edit in England

On Dec 9, 4:34 am, soundofnyc wrote:
> Working on a short which will be edited in England on Avid I assume.
> Can't get a response from the editor. Wondering if there is anything
> special I should know. I figured 24 fps SMPTE no pull up or pull down.
> Thanks  Scott

In UK we shoot 25fps for TV(PAL) and 24fps for film.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On Dec 9, 11:42 am, "Batterywa...@googlemail.com"
wrote:
> On Dec 9, 4:34 am, soundofnyc wrote:
>
> > Working on a short which will be edited in England on Avid I assume.
> > Can't get a response from the editor. Wondering if there is anything
> > special I should know. I figured 24 fps SMPTE no pull up or pull down.
> > Thanks  Scott
>
> In UK we shoot 25fps for TV(PAL) and 24fps for film.

Just to add some variance to Batterywalla's note, I've recorded sound
for a short film where they were shooting 35mm at 25 fps because the
project was only going to be broadcast on UK television... Best get a
definitive answer from production if you can.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On 9 Dec, 04:34, soundofnyc wrote:
> Working on a short which will be edited in England on Avid I assume.
> Can't get a response from the editor. Wondering if there is anything
> special I should know. I figured 24 fps SMPTE no pull up or pull down.
> Thanks  Scott

Hi Scott,

if I can't get an answer from Production I usually give the transfer
house a call. But always try and get production to supply details, in
writing or email.

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On Dec 9, 9:34 am, soundofnyc wrote:
> Working on a short which will be edited in England on Avid I assume.

As mentioned by someone else here, just the fact that it is being
edited in England does not mean that it has to be PAL-based edits.
However, if it is a PAL edit it does not matter which editing system
they use. what matters is if it is being shot on film - the post is on
PAL so tc should be 25fps. period. if it is on video, it will be 25fps
anyways since it is PAL.

Betterg a response from the editor or better to make it clear to the
producers that you should not be held responsible later. Let THEM tell
you, and if they can't get a disclaimer acknowledged by them in some
solid way.

-vin
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

> In UK we shoot 25fps for TV(PAL) and 24fps for film.
???
even if the film is going to be edited on an AVID/FCP? do you still go
with 24fps TC?

-vin
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On Dec 10, 2:37 am, vin wrote:
> > In UK we shoot 25fps for TV(PAL) and 24fps for film.
>
> ???
> even if the film is going to be edited on an AVID/FCP? do you still go
> with 24fps TC?
>
> -vin

Vin,

Depends on workflow, all of my stuff for theater are 24 thru out.

Alan
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

09-12-2008 19:36 "vin" :

> if it is being shot on film - the post is on
> PAL so tc should be 25fps. period.

I disagree. I've used 24TC on numerous 24fps films in the PAL world. It's
more accurate, of course. Used to be an issue for some transfer houses, but
I don't think that still holds up.

J, NL
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

When i shoot comercials for TV i use 25TC for Europe cause they shoot
25fps.
On film, i use 24 when we shoot at 24 fps on camera. Last month i've
finished an Spanish film this way.
For france same thing.

Fabian.


On Dec 10, 5:25 pm, Jakob van Oosterhout wrote:
> 09-12-2008 19:36 "vin" :
>
> > if it is being shot on film - the post is on
> > PAL so tc should be 25fps. period.
>
> I disagree. I've used 24TC on numerous 24fps films in the PAL world. It's
> more accurate, of course. Used to be an issue for some transfer houses, but
> I don't think that still holds up.
>
> J, NL
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:25:40 +0100, Jakob van Oosterhout
wrote:

Jakob,

>I disagree. I've used 24TC on numerous 24fps films in the PAL world. It's
>more accurate, of course. Used to be an issue for some transfer houses, but
>I don't think that still holds up.

If your 24 frame material is being transferred to SD PAL then the
telecine normally runs at 25fps. If this is the case then the
timecode should be 25fps since all source calculations on
timecode/keycode/ etc are done at 25fps. As far as I know, for this
type of transfer with synching in the cutting room, an Avid system
also requires 25fps sound timecode.

The exception is when the telecine runs at 24fps but inserts two field
per second to output 25fps PAL pictures. In this case, 25fps sound
TC is also required.

If the telecine is transferring to HD at 24fps, then the sound
timecode should be at 24fps.

Jim.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

15-12-2008 16:46 "Jim Guthrie" :

> If your 24 frame material is being transferred to SD PAL then the
> telecine normally runs at 25fps. If this is the case then the
> timecode should be 25fps since all source calculations on
> timecode/keycode/ etc are done at 25fps.

Sorry, but I disagree.

If the film camera on a 24fps shoot has been recording TC, that TC will have
been TC24, yet in telecine the speed of the film will be 25fps, but that
does not alter the TC numbers on the film itself. So basically, in telecine,
there is a 24TC that is being played back at 25fps, which should make an
audio device chase that TC24 by playing back faster.

Video TC for PAL transfers, of course, is always TC25. But that has no
relationship to the type of sound TC.

> an Avid system
> also requires 25fps sound timecode.

It does not require this. It can handle both. As said: been there and done
that. Quite often, actually. Recent versions of the software even ask you
how to interpret the timestamp in BWF's, either as TC25 or TC24.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

16-12-2008 08:03 "Jakob van Oosterhout" :

>> an Avid system
>> also requires 25fps sound timecode.
>
> It does not require this. It can handle both.

Forgot to mention: I say this from experience as an editor, owning and
having owned various Avids.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:03:55 +0100, Jakob van Oosterhout
wrote:

Jakob,

>If the film camera on a 24fps shoot has been recording TC, that TC will have
>been TC24, yet in telecine the speed of the film will be 25fps, but that
>does not alter the TC numbers on the film itself. So basically, in telecine,
>there is a 24TC that is being played back at 25fps, which should make an
>audio device chase that TC24 by playing back faster.

Sorry foe the delay in responding - my internet connection has been
faulty.

Maybe we should investigate whether the OP is workingn with a film
camera recording timecode on film. On this side of the pond, that
would be 16mm only, since 35mm timecode in camera appears to be very
rare.

If the camera is not laying down timecode on film, which I suspect is
prtobably the situation in this case, and the telecine is running at
25fps to lay down to PAL, then the timecode should be 25fps.

Jim.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England 

26-12-2008 08:13 "Jim Guthrie" :

> the telecine is running at
> 25fps to lay down to PAL, then the timecode should be 25fps.

I fail to see the reason for that. I know that it is possible, just pretty
sure it not mandatory. The playback speed matters. The counter is just a
counter, and whether it is dividing a second in 24 or 25 counts is
relatively unimportant unless one is trying to achieve a 1:1 frame
relationship.

In the DAT era, I know that I would set my 7030 deck to convert the 24TC to
a 25TC in order to be able to capture into an Avid PAL project (which for a
deck always requires 25TC as source TC).

J, NL.
 >> Stay informed about: Shooting 24fps to edit in England