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Sir Blob (get a life)

 
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No Man

External


Since: Sep 23, 2007
Posts: 106



(Msg. 16) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Sir Blob (get a life) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>past-films (more info?)

william wrote:

> So if I'm an "idiot" for responding to the troll, is the person who
> responded to me more or less of an idiot? Does the idiocy grow or
> diminish as the thread continues?

It's like the provenance of stolen nazi art; you have more rights to it
the more hands have fenced it from Goering to you. We don't make the rules.

Take land grabs. It's bad. Israel took some country due to wars, and the
EU and us too say they have to give it back sometime. Well, okay, they
say, but only if. But they don't say, we stole it fair and square.
That's because it's only been forty years or so since they stole it.
It's still hot. Refugees from the land say they have a Right of Return,
and some say, you bet.

Take California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas. There was even less
justification for stealing that land, because the unprovoked war was
only for langrabbing. Now who says give it back? Nobody. In fact, those
refugees who expect the Right of Return and act on it become political
footballs and are jailed and deported when they're found. What's the
difference? Well, time. It's been over a hundred and sixty years since
that grab. Finders keepers, after that long. Plus it was us doing the
stealing, which makes it different. We're still able to deplore all them
banana republics that torture prisoners without rights and spy on their
citizens and wage unprovoked wars and jail political opponents; that's
how different we are.

Moral: Any execrable act will be ratified by time and dirty hands,
especially if it's our hands. That's an original saying of mine.



--
'... my name is Noman; this is what my father and mother and my friends
have always called me.' - Odyssey; Book IX

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slidge

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Since: May 23, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 17) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:45 pm
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>> I can think of a few groups that have died, outright died, because of
>> the actions of a single troll. rec.sports.baseball is in its dying
>> throes right now because of a troll.
>
> Groups die off, but you may be overstating this: what groups have
> outright died as the results of a single troll?

Go to rec.sports.baseball and you can witness it in real time. The troll
is named Maynard, who posts under about five or six different pseudonyms.
He currently makes up about 85% of the posts on the group. Most people
have fled to web forums or the individual team newsgroups.

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Thomas G. Marshall

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Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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No Man said something like:
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
>> Groups die off, but you may be overstating this: what groups have
>> outright died as the results of a single troll?
>
> I once had a Science teacher who sought to be different. When he
> caught someone cheating on a test, he penalized the one whose
> security was so weak as to allow copying. By this measure, spammers
> are not the problem, but the idiots who respond to them are. Same
> with trolls.

Broken analogy, and worse, broken logic.

Trolls have their motivation to be heard, which is accomplished by the
posting. If no one engages them, there is little lost in their eyes.

And besides, the goal of never engaging a troll is ridiculous to begin with:
You often HAVE to engage them to discover they are a troll in the first
place.

Someone can say something outlandish or destructive, and are only understood
to be a troll when asked to cease their destructive behavior.
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Thomas G. Marshall

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Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 19) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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David Oberman said something like:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower RemoveThis @replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> people love to admonish others when they think they stand on popular
>> footing.
>
> You aren't one of those people!

There is no popular footing for me to stand on. Have you been paying
attention at all? It is MORE COMMONLY BELIEVED (without cogent data) that
engaging trolls is a bad thing. I'm saying otherwise.
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Thomas G. Marshall

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Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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slidge.DeleteThis@slidge.com said something like:
>>> I can think of a few groups that have died, outright died, because
>>> of the actions of a single troll. rec.sports.baseball is in its
>>> dying throes right now because of a troll.
>>
>> Groups die off, but you may be overstating this: what groups have
>> outright died as the results of a single troll?
>
> Go to rec.sports.baseball and you can witness it in real time. The
> troll is named Maynard, who posts under about five or six different
> pseudonyms. He currently makes up about 85% of the posts on the
> group. Most people have fled to web forums or the individual team
> newsgroups.

You said that you can think of a few groups that have "died, outright died"
because of the actions of a single troll.

I'm asking you which ones.

I'm clearly not asking about any you currently see trolls in. Those are a
dime a dozen.

So which groups have "died, outright died" from a single troll?
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Thomas G. Marshall

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Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 21) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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No Man said something like:
> slidge DeleteThis @slidge.com wrote:
>
>> I can think of a few groups that have died, outright died, because
>> of the actions of a single troll. rec.sports.baseball is in its
>> dying throes right now because of a troll.
>
> "Trolls don't kill groups; People kills groups." - the NRA (Nutty
> Republican Asses)


Political bomb throwers are among the worst of the flaming trolls.

Please don't do this again. It's inviting a hell of a bonfire.
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Thomas G. Marshall

External


Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 22) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Sir Blob (get a life) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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No Man said something like:
> william wrote:
>
>> So if I'm an "idiot" for responding to the troll, is the person who
>> responded to me more or less of an idiot? Does the idiocy grow or
>> diminish as the thread continues?
>
> It's like the provenance of stolen nazi art; you have more rights to
> it the more hands have fenced it from Goering to you. We don't make
> the rules.
> Take land grabs. It's bad. Israel took some country due to wars, and
> the EU and us too say they have to give it back sometime. Well, okay,
> they say, but only if. But they don't say, we stole it fair and
> square. That's because it's only been forty years or so since they stole
> it.
> It's still hot. Refugees from the land say they have a Right of
> Return, and some say, you bet.
>
> Take California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas. There was even less
> justification for stealing that land, because the unprovoked war was
> only for langrabbing. Now who says give it back? Nobody. In fact,
> those refugees who expect the Right of Return and act on it become
> political footballs and are jailed and deported when they're found.
> What's the difference? Well, time. It's been over a hundred and sixty
> years since that grab. Finders keepers, after that long. Plus it was
> us doing the stealing, which makes it different. We're still able to
> deplore all them banana republics that torture prisoners without
> rights and spy on their citizens and wage unprovoked wars and jail
> political opponents; that's how different we are.
>
> Moral: Any execrable act will be ratified by time and dirty hands,
> especially if it's our hands. That's an original saying of mine.


Good to see you have quoted a respectable source.

Your analgies stretch too far.
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Thomas G. Marshall

External


Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Sir Blob (get a life) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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william said something like:
> On Oct 11, 11:30 am, No Man <woes... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> By this measure, spammers are not the problem,
>> but the idiots who respond to them are. Same with trolls.
>>
> So if I'm an "idiot" for responding to the troll, is the person who
> responded to me more or less of an idiot? Does the idiocy grow or
> diminish as the thread continues? No matter how you slice it, you're
> in the same boat. Sometimes it's worth discussing what's going on with
> this group because I was considering deleting my link because so much
> junk gets posted here. What has happened instead is that numerous
> other people have expressed the same concern and all feel strongly
> about being here. I'll be the idiot every time if that happens.

William, first of all, yes, and secondly, I believe that people get the
causality confused.

If A->B->C, it's as if I'm hearing condemnation of B for causing C when A
was there initially.

I do really believe that this is a case of usenet-law being taken as gospel.
I think it's time we start questioning the validity of such gospel.
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George Peatty

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Since: Dec 26, 2005
Posts: 672



(Msg. 24) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:11:01 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower DeleteThis @replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:

>Trolls have their motivation to be heard, which is accomplished by the
>posting. If no one engages them, there is little lost in their eyes.

I disagree. Trolls crave attention, and will do almost anything to get it.
Not paying attention to them is a sure way to discourage them. In their
mind, something is *clearly* lost, and that something is the enthusiasm to
continue the trolling. Sadly, in the case of some real sociopaths, most of
whom, it would seem, are online and in usenet, it does not deter them. The
voices in their head tell them to try again, and they can only obey. Still,
it's nice to know that if they can deprive of us of the fun of usenet, we
can do the same to them. And, at minimal cost in time and effort on our
part.
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No Man

External


Since: Sep 23, 2007
Posts: 106



(Msg. 25) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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Thomas G. Marshall wrote:

> Please don't do this again. It's inviting a hell of a bonfire.

New around here, are you? You're obviously unfamiliar with the political
edge of Usenet, as well as trolling, as well as the fact there is one
individual whose posts you have control of, if that.

--
'... my name is Noman; this is what my father and mother and my friends
have always called me.' - Odyssey; Book IX
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No Man

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Since: Sep 23, 2007
Posts: 106



(Msg. 26) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 pm
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George Peatty wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:11:01 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower RemoveThis @replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:

>>Trolls have their motivation to be heard, which is accomplished by the
>>posting. If no one engages them, there is little lost in their eyes.

> I disagree. Trolls crave attention, and will do almost anything to get it.

Of course. It is like any sociopathetic performance, such as the louts
who damage great art. You think they'd be doing that if they had the
competence of creation? Every elementary school teacher knows the signs;
when little Herbert starts dropping back in his work, you can expect his
acting out to gear up.

Same with writing; they're either very good or very bad, and the object
of both is public notice. I know of one writer who supposedly locks his
day's work up in a safe unread: J D Salinger. Anybody else has to see
some reaction.

They aren't really hard to spot. I mean, some loony lout is stopped by
the HP, yells at the cop, "You Jewish? The Jews have caused all the wars
in the world!" - you know you won't be engaging Hannah Arendt if you
follow up on the argument.

Easy call, sports fans.




--
'... my name is Noman; this is what my father and mother and my friends
have always called me.' - Odyssey; Book IX
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David Oberman

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Since: Dec 31, 2006
Posts: 747



(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:59 pm
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"Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower.TakeThisOut@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> people love to admonish others when they think they stand on popular
>>> footing.
>>
>> You aren't one of those people!
>
>There is no popular footing for me to stand on. Have you been paying
>attention at all? It is MORE COMMONLY BELIEVED (without cogent data) that
>engaging trolls is a bad thing. I'm saying otherwise.

Curse the trolls. I'm talking about YOU, Tom! Even without popular
support, you love to admonish others!







____
A bigger wretch I never knew on God's earth, an
arch-scoundrel whom I have sent about his business.

-- Beethoven, to Ries on Schindler
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David Oberman

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Since: Dec 31, 2006
Posts: 747



(Msg. 28) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:01 pm
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"Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower RemoveThis @replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:

>You said that you can think of a few groups that have "died, outright died"
>because of the actions of a single troll.
>
>I'm asking you which ones.

I don't know which ones he has in mind. But I know of one:
rec.music.artists.stevie-nicks

It died -- outright died -- from a single troll.







____
A bigger wretch I never knew on God's earth, an
arch-scoundrel whom I have sent about his business.

-- Beethoven, to Ries on Schindler
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Thomas G. Marshall

External


Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 29) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:45 pm
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George Peatty said something like:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:11:01 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower.RemoveThis@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Trolls have their motivation to be heard, which is accomplished by
>> the posting. If no one engages them, there is little lost in their
>> eyes.
>
> I disagree. Trolls crave attention, and will do almost anything to
> get it. Not paying attention to them is a sure way to discourage
> them. In their mind, something is *clearly* lost, and that something
> is the enthusiasm to continue the trolling. Sadly, in the case of
> some real sociopaths, most of whom, it would seem, are online and in
> usenet, it does not deter them. The voices in their head tell them
> to try again, and they can only obey. Still, it's nice to know that
> if they can deprive of us of the fun of usenet, we can do the same to
> them. And, at minimal cost in time and effort on our part.

Well agent Gideon, we do disagree then.

Try watching something other than Criminal Minds for a while... :) j/k

The point is that they will get the attention they need /before/ anyone
knows they are a troll and does or does not respond to them. It is
pointless wishful thinking to think that they are a problem that goes away
from lack of attention. Remember, before they ever GOT to the newsgroup
they had no interaction. And yet they still posted. No one engaged them to
cause the first posting. That impetus is there *before* and *regardless* of
whether or not anyone responds.
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Thomas G. Marshall

External


Since: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: 18



(Msg. 30) Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Sir Blob (get a life) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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No Man said something like:
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
>> Please don't do this again. It's inviting a hell of a bonfire.
>
> New around here, are you? You're obviously unfamiliar with the
> political edge of Usenet, as well as trolling, as well as the fact there
> is one individual whose posts you have control of, if that.


Been in usenet since 1995. Over 4700 posts primarily helping people in
computer programming. Many have more experience in usenet than that, but
I'm hardly "new around here".

And you're wrong on two further counts: 1. Putting a political flame bait
even into a signature is ill advised let alone the mess you'll make by
putting one in the body of the message. We can auto-ignore the former, not
the latter.

And, 2. If you believe that there is an accepted inherent political edge to
non-political groups in usenet, then you need to learn a little more about
it.
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