Somthing else for the spelling police!!!

"Varizo." <varizo RemoveThis @netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1162877104.685189.82920@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> my Dad was like let him hav it long if he wants to

No surprises there.

> V.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4r8ucsFq461aU1@individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:einf2k$pce$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4r3lpmFp03riU1@individual.net...
>>> We _really_ need to improve the quality of basic English grammar and
>>> spelling in our schools;
>>
>> But how do we do that ?
>
> Well, ideally, the school system needs to add grammar lessons to the
> national curriculum;
Any particular language.

> as far as I know, pupils are not generally taught formal grammar at any
> point in their schooling. In addition, good spelling and grammar should be
> included as a Learning Outcome to other subjects, so that in order to
> achieve full marks, a piece of writing would have to be written clearly,
> grammatically, and with good spelling.
The trouble is that could hold back truly talented people.

The other problem is a multicultural society, I doubt you saw
the news about the Stratford school, 1`80 pupils 120 languages.
It's going to get worse still, I wondering whether anyone actually realises
that looking at a teachers lips for the formation of words, and any
accompanying
expressions actual are of any use.


> In addition, I think that higher up the foodchain, in Universities, we
> need to insist on a higher standard than we currently seem to get; it
> might take a while, but sooner or later this should cause a sort of
> tricke-down effect; schools will begin to recognise that they have a duty
> to provide their pupils with the skills necessary to get into University,
> and therefore that they need to provide grammar and spelling lessons.
The trouble is universities use to take the top 2-3% and distributed
funds between then now we take 50% and it isn't working very well.
Universities aren't;t graded on the ability of the students we eject into
society.
We tend to use results, and the grades of those teaching them.

> Of course, parents can take a part in this too;
When the kids know how their parents are.

> reading with children, and encouraging them to read to themselves, is an
> excellent way of helping to improve a child's literacy, and playing
> educational games with them can also be really useful; I have vague
> memories or learning to spell simple words and the names of my family
> members using magnetic letters, at the age of about three.
And I remember trying to take the scaleelctic apart and later
trying to find out how to make the cars go faster.
Skills should be encouraged but it should start and stop with arranging
letters on a page.



>>> I'm marking undergraduate essays and lab reports where some of the
>>> students literally don't know ho to use full stops; this can make it
>>> really hard to understand what they're trying to say, and prevents them
>>> from expressing themselves clearly. This is a real shame for some of
>>> them, who are obviously bright, but struggle to use their intelligence.
>>
>> Why do you think this is happening, surely it would show up in school
>> exams
>> and the kids wouldn't get the grade(s) to go to university.
>
> Well, being a new University, we don't have very high entrance
> requirements,
That is one of the problems making colleges Universities takes more than
just
a change of name.

> so unfortunately, this sort of problem doesn't get picked up at entrance
> level. As I say, we, along with other Universities, need to raise our
> standards somewhat.
And if you do that what happens to you realsie you are funded according to
numbers
bums on seats.

>
>> How are these kids passing at a high enough grade to get to univ.
>> in the first place.
>
> A lot of ours aren't kids; we have a lot of mature students. Also, we have
> a lot of overseas students, who don't go through the UCAS entrance system,
> and therefore don't have to have any particular grades.

So you accept students from overseas without accessing their educational
suitability, you don';t even ask for a CV of some sort.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"ReVulse" <ReVulse.RemoveThis@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.11.06.14.18.41.695178@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk...
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:58:45 +0000, whisky-dave wrote:
>

>>> We _really_ need to improve the quality of basic English grammar and
>>> spelling in our schools;
>>
>> But how do we do that ?
>
> The first step would be to stop accepting and encouraging sloppiness.

AT school level ?

At university level the univ gets funding according to how many studetns we
attract
less studetns less money, it's as simple as that. get overseas one and you
get
even more money.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"Dag" <dagwast.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eio5bf012hh@news2.newsguy.com...
> whisky-dave wrote:
>
>>> We _really_ need to improve the quality of basic English grammar and
>>> spelling in our schools;
>>
>> But how do we do that ?
>
> The most obvious solution is to start setting standards and requirements
> on both teachers and students and then hold them to them. Most
> importantly stop lowering exam requirements just so that more people will
> pass. Instead make people who fail get extra lessons.

Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams here
than at a place down the road where do you think next years students that
want
to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more students
or one that
accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world

Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
That's the real world.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:eiqdnb$t0$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4r8ucsFq461aU1@individual.net...
>>>> We _really_ need to improve the quality of basic English grammar and
>>>> spelling in our schools;
>>>
>>> But how do we do that ?
>>
>> Well, ideally, the school system needs to add grammar lessons to the
>> national curriculum;
> Any particular language.

Let's see if you can work it out, Dave; you asked how one might improve the
quality of basic ENGLISH grammar and spelling in schools, and I suggested
adding grammar lessons to the curriculum.
Which language do you think might prove most helpful for that?

Having said that, learning foreign languages can be very helpful in
improving a person's grasp of their own; Latin seems to have fallen off the
curriculum in most schools, which is a real shame, as it can be extremely
helpful both from the point of view of grammar and also in terms of
vocabulary; because quite a lot of our language comes from Latin, having a
grasp of Latin can often help one to understand unfamiliar (Latin-based)
words, and to remember how to spell them too.

>> as far as I know, pupils are not generally taught formal grammar at any
>> point in their schooling. In addition, good spelling and grammar should
>> be included as a Learning Outcome to other subjects, so that in order to
>> achieve full marks, a piece of writing would have to be written clearly,
>> grammatically, and with good spelling.
> The trouble is that could hold back truly talented people.

How so?

>
> The other problem is a multicultural society, I doubt you saw
> the news about the Stratford school, 1`80 pupils 120 languages.

Yes, it is a concern, and it does make it very difficult to proceed.
Obvoiusly we can't segregate schoolkids according to whether they speak
English as a first language or not, but I tend to be of the opinion that in
an English school, kids should be speaking English, even if that's not the
language they speak at home. Clearly we need to be providing more ESL
facilities within schools, but I think they should be in addition to, rather
than instead of, normal lessons. Perhaps we need to address the issue by
streaming people by ability rather than age (so you don't move from year
three to year four until you have passed some sort of "end of year three
standard"), and perhaps also we should introduce a german-style split school
system, so that those who are more academic can go to an academic school
while those who are more suited to vocational courses can study them and get
good, meaningful qualifications in them, without those qualifications being
looked down on as somehow less worth while than the academic ones.

>> In addition, I think that higher up the foodchain, in Universities, we
>> need to insist on a higher standard than we currently seem to get; it
>> might take a while, but sooner or later this should cause a sort of
>> tricke-down effect; schools will begin to recognise that they have a duty
>> to provide their pupils with the skills necessary to get into University,
>> and therefore that they need to provide grammar and spelling lessons.

> The trouble is universities use to take the top 2-3% and distributed
> funds between then now we take 50% and it isn't working very well.

Is it as high as 50% now? I know it went from about 5% in the 60s to about
30% at the end of the 90s; it may have hit 50% by now, I don't know.

> Universities aren't;t graded on the ability of the students we eject into
> society.
> We tend to use results, and the grades of those teaching them.

Well, no, not really; Universities are graded on the quality of their
teaching and of their research, not on the grades of their graduates.

>> reading with children, and encouraging them to read to themselves, is an
>> excellent way of helping to improve a child's literacy, and playing
>> educational games with them can also be really useful; I have vague
>> memories or learning to spell simple words and the names of my family
>> members using magnetic letters, at the age of about three.
> And I remember trying to take the scaleelctic apart and later
> trying to find out how to make the cars go faster.
> Skills should be encouraged but it should start and stop with arranging
> letters on a page.

Is there a missing "not" in there?
If so, I agree, reading and writing isn't the be-all and end-all. But those
are very basic, very important skills to learn. You'll be able to adapt your
scaletrix set more effectively if you can read the manual, and you'll be
able to tell your friends how to do it more effectively if you can write
clearly and in a way which can be understood.

>> Well, being a new University, we don't have very high entrance
>> requirements,
> That is one of the problems making colleges Universities takes more than
> just
> a change of name.

Absolutely.

>> so unfortunately, this sort of problem doesn't get picked up at entrance
>> level. As I say, we, along with other Universities, need to raise our
>> standards somewhat.
> And if you do that what happens to you realsie you are funded according to
> numbers
> bums on seats.

Well, partially, yes. Which is a big part of the problem.

>> A lot of ours aren't kids; we have a lot of mature students. Also, we
>> have a lot of overseas students, who don't go through the UCAS entrance
>> system, and therefore don't have to have any particular grades.
>
> So you accept students from overseas without accessing their educational
> suitability, you don';t even ask for a CV of some sort.

Well, they have to fill in an application form, which takes the place of a
CV, but it doesn't assess (is that what you meant, rather than "acccess"?)
their language skills.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

You are not very knowledgeable on this. People go to universities with
prestige, ones that are viewed as having the best graduates. These
schools are going to be tougher to get through because the schools know
that more will be lined up to enter. The university in the city I live
has people waiting to get in and they have tough standards. People fail
classes all the time and still more are lined up at the door. That's the
real world. Your world seems to be filled with slack jawed whiners.
Graduates from your world will be well prepared to run the deep fryer at
any number of fast food restaurants.

whisky-dave wrote:
>
> Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams here
> than at a place down the road where do you think next years students that
> want
> to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more students
> or one that
> accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
> as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world
>
> Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
> That's the real world.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave RemoveThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:eiqe4e$15q$1@qmul...
>
> "Dag" <dagwast RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eio5bf012hh@news2.newsguy.com...
>> The most obvious solution is to start setting standards and requirements
>> on both teachers and students and then hold them to them. Most
>> importantly stop lowering exam requirements just so that more people will
>> pass. Instead make people who fail get extra lessons.
>
> Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams here
> than at a place down the road where do you think next years students that
> want
> to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more
> students or one that
> accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
> as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world

So we need to look at, say, how many people apply to Universities like
oxford and Cambridge, and how many apply to, say, UEL.

And if you actually look at those real world figures, you'll find that
Oxford and Cambridge have _far_ more applicants than they can handle, while
UEL has far far fewer.

Which suggests that your theory needs rethinking; actually, better
universities with higher standards are more desireable than those with lower
standards.

>
> Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
> That's the real world.

No, Dave, it isn't. That's your theory, but it is contradicted by the facts.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4rbsvqFqsc1aU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:eiqdnb$t0$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4r8ucsFq461aU1@individual.net...
>>>>> We _really_ need to improve the quality of basic English grammar and
>>>>> spelling in our schools;
>>>>
>>>> But how do we do that ?
>>>
>>> Well, ideally, the school system needs to add grammar lessons to the
>>> national curriculum;
>> Any particular language.
>
> Let's see if you can work it out, Dave; you asked how one might improve
> the quality of basic ENGLISH grammar and spelling in schools, and I
> suggested adding grammar lessons to the curriculum.
> Which language do you think might prove most helpful for that?

Depends on the students. But the first task is to get them to turn up for
school.


> Having said that, learning foreign languages can be very helpful in
> improving a person's grasp of their own; Latin seems to have fallen off
> the curriculum in most schools, which is a real shame, as it can be
> extremely helpful both from the point of view of grammar and also in terms
> of vocabulary; because quite a lot of our language comes from Latin,
> having a grasp of Latin can often help one to understand unfamiliar
> (Latin-based) words, and to remember how to spell them too.

True but then again the employment market hasn't much use for such skills
as reading latin.

>
>>> as far as I know, pupils are not generally taught formal grammar at any
>>> point in their schooling. In addition, good spelling and grammar should
>>> be included as a Learning Outcome to other subjects, so that in order to
>>> achieve full marks, a piece of writing would have to be written clearly,
>>> grammatically, and with good spelling.
>> The trouble is that could hold back truly talented people.
>
> How so?

never heard of doctors handwriting.
But writing is a particular skill, not in the words you produce but the way
you write them.
I always had difficulty with joined up writing and my father could rarely
write in lowercase
and his spelling is worse than mine. My mother is a very good speller, but
hopless at math.
Ask her to cut a cake in 3 and she couldn't do it, but my dad could.
My mother is left handed and was beaten at school for being left handed.


>> The other problem is a multicultural society, I doubt you saw
>> the news about the Stratford school, 1`80 pupils 120 languages.
>
> Yes, it is a concern, and it does make it very difficult to proceed.
> Obvoiusly we can't segregate schoolkids according to whether they speak
> English as a first language or not, but I tend to be of the opinion that
> in an English school, kids should be speaking English,

You sound like a rebel.

> than instead of, normal lessons. Perhaps we need to address the issue by
> streaming people by ability rather than age (so you don't move from year
> three to year four until you have passed some sort of "end of year three
> standard"), and perhaps also we should introduce a german-style split
> school system, so that those who are more academic can go to an academic
> school while those who are more suited to vocational courses can study
> them and get good, meaningful qualifications in them, without those
> qualifications being looked down on as somehow less worth while than the
> academic ones.

We did run that system until the some idiots started to control such
processes.
Lots and lots of books were written about it, lots of theories put forward,
lots of people made money from changing the system.
Perhaps it's time to find out where it all went wrong, some knew
when it started.


>>> In addition, I think that higher up the foodchain, in Universities, we
>>> need to insist on a higher standard than we currently seem to get; it
>>> might take a while, but sooner or later this should cause a sort of
>>> tricke-down effect; schools will begin to recognise that they have a
>>> duty to provide their pupils with the skills necessary to get into
>>> University, and therefore that they need to provide grammar and spelling
>>> lessons.
>
>> The trouble is universities use to take the top 2-3% and distributed
>> funds between then now we take 50% and it isn't working very well.
>
> Is it as high as 50% now? I know it went from about 5% in the 60s to about
> 30% at the end of the 90s; it may have hit 50% by now, I don't know.

I'm not sure but the aim was higher than 50% they wanted to match
what other countries were doing, but they didn't really understand their
systems,
and how the social structure in the UK wasn't quite the same.


>
>> Universities aren't;t graded on the ability of the students we eject into
>> society.
>> We tend to use results, and the grades of those teaching them.
>
> Well, no, not really; Universities are graded on the quality of their
> teaching and of their research, not on the grades of their graduates.

Check out how the Times ES and other such publications access universities.


>> Skills should be encouraged but it should start and stop with arranging
>> letters on a page.
>
> Is there a missing "not" in there?
Yep a n't actually,

> If so, I agree, reading and writing isn't the be-all and end-all. But
> those are very basic, very important skills to learn.
And some can't.
Some can't paint (as in pictures, like myself).

> You'll be able to adapt your scaletrix set more effectively if you can
> read the manual,
But I can read a manual and write them as I have done, but as you'll notice
I might leave words out, I don't notice I've not typed them, even after
reading it back.

> and you'll be able to tell your friends how to do it more effectively if
> you can write clearly and in a way which can be understood.
That's one of the point I've been complaining about on our students
behalf the labsheet may have correct grammar and be perfectly spelt
but as for clarity they leave a lot to be desired because those writing
the labsheets have never done the lab they are writing about, they have
only done the theory and teach the theory.

>>> Well, being a new University, we don't have very high entrance
>>> requirements,
>> That is one of the problems making colleges Universities takes more than
>> just
>> a change of name.
>
> Absolutely.
wow, then I wonder what genoisu thought it would.
Must have been someone far cleverer than us then.


>>> so unfortunately, this sort of problem doesn't get picked up at entrance
>>> level. As I say, we, along with other Universities, need to raise our
>>> standards somewhat.
>> And if you do that what happens to you realsie you are funded according
>> to numbers
>> bums on seats.
>
> Well, partially, yes. Which is a big part of the problem.
Which is why we squeeze as many in as possible we haven't even got enough
stools in the lecture rooms, and when we let them do practical in groups of
between 5-7 that really should be done in pairs it doesn't help either.
I remember at school reading Kes, I actually found it quite interesting,
but there were 3 of us to one book, we had to wait for each other before the
page
could be turned, we were 3 kids sharing 2 desks, but we did have 3 chairs.
I should have started school in spetember but beign a W I started in jan.
Not a good start they didn't have enough classrooms.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.TakeThisOut@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:eit3d8$82d$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.TakeThisOut@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4rbsvqFqsc1aU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Let's see if you can work it out, Dave; you asked how one might improve
>> the quality of basic ENGLISH grammar and spelling in schools, and I
>> suggested adding grammar lessons to the curriculum.
>> Which language do you think might prove most helpful for that?
>
> Depends on the students.

In what way? Under what circumstances might a student's grasp of English
grammar and spelling be improved more by lessons in the gramar and spelling
of some language other than English, than by lessons in English grammar and
spelling?

>> Having said that, learning foreign languages can be very helpful in
>> improving a person's grasp of their own; Latin seems to have fallen off
>> the curriculum in most schools, which is a real shame, as it can be
>> extremely helpful both from the point of view of grammar and also in
>> terms of vocabulary; because quite a lot of our language comes from
>> Latin, having a grasp of Latin can often help one to understand
>> unfamiliar (Latin-based) words, and to remember how to spell them too.
>
> True but then again the employment market hasn't much use for such skills
> as reading latin.

You didn't understand anything I said in that paragraph, did you? Learnign
Latin can (pay attention now) _improve one's facility with written English_.
It can help students to (here's the science bit) _better understand English
grammar and improve English spelling_.

A lot fo subjects are not intended to be vocational studies; rather, they're
aimed at improving our overall ability to think, and to communicate.

>>> The trouble is that could hold back truly talented people.
>>
>> How so?
>
> never heard of doctors handwriting.

That's irrelevant, we're not talkign about handwriting, we're talking about
spelling and grammar. Dont' go off on a tangent.
You said that giving marks for spelling and grammar and clarity could hold
back talented people; please can you explain how?

>> than instead of, normal lessons. Perhaps we need to address the issue by
>> streaming people by ability rather than age (so you don't move from year
>> three to year four until you have passed some sort of "end of year three
>> standard"), and perhaps also we should introduce a german-style split
>> school system, so that those who are more academic can go to an academic
>> school while those who are more suited to vocational courses can study
>> them and get good, meaningful qualifications in them, without those
>> qualifications being looked down on as somehow less worth while than the
>> academic ones.
>
> We did run that system until the some idiots started to control such
> processes.

Erm, well, not to the same extent as the Germans we didn't.

>> Is it as high as 50% now? I know it went from about 5% in the 60s to
>> about 30% at the end of the 90s; it may have hit 50% by now, I don't
>> know.
>
> I'm not sure but the aim was higher than 50% they wanted to match
> what other countries were doing, but they didn't really understand their
> systems,
> and how the social structure in the UK wasn't quite the same.

Do you have a cite for any of this?

>> Well, no, not really; Universities are graded on the quality of their
>> teaching and of their research, not on the grades of their graduates.
>
> Check out how the Times ES and other such publications access
> universities.

Do you mean "assess" rather than "access"? Could you provide a cite for what
you're talking about, as you're not explaining it clearly at all?

>
>
>>> Skills should be encouraged but it should start and stop with arranging
>>> letters on a page.
>>
>> Is there a missing "not" in there?
> Yep a n't actually,

Do you see why proofreading is important, Dave? You've written exactly the
opposite of what you meant to say. If you'd read it before sending it, it
wouldn't have said the opposite of what you meant.

>
>> If so, I agree, reading and writing isn't the be-all and end-all. But
>> those are very basic, very important skills to learn.
> And some can't.

Very few people actually aren't capable of learning to communicate clearly.
There are some who have severe learning disabilities, but to be hoenst, not
being able to read and write is the least of their problems. The _vast_
majority of people can, if they actually put the effort in,a dn if they
receive decent teaching.

>> You'll be able to adapt your scaletrix set more effectively if you can
>> read the manual,
> But I can read a manual and write them as I have done, but as you'll
> notice
> I might leave words out, I don't notice I've not typed them, even after
> reading it back.

Right. And that can mean that you say exactly the opposite of what you
actually mean. Do you see why learning to write clearly is important?

>> and you'll be able to tell your friends how to do it more effectively if
>> you can write clearly and in a way which can be understood.
> That's one of the point I've been complaining about on our students
> behalf the labsheet may have correct grammar and be perfectly spelt
> but as for clarity they leave a lot to be desired because those writing
> the labsheets have never done the lab they are writing about, they have
> only done the theory and teach the theory.

Does that matter, particularly? I'm currently marking a whole load of lab
reports; I haven't personally done the research that they're writing about,
but I'm still perfectly able to grade their reports, and I'm perfectly
capable of teaching them how to do the research adn how to write the
reports.

>>> That is one of the problems making colleges Universities takes more than
>>> just
>>> a change of name.
>>
>> Absolutely.
> wow, then I wonder what genoisu thought it would.

I don't think anyone thought any such thing; what makes you believe that
someone did?

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

Varizo. wrote:

> Ive had ppl in other NGs say how much my spelling has inproved,

To be fair your spelling seems to be better than it has been in the
past. It does however seem highly variable. Some posts are almost
acceptable while others are just atrocious. It seems that if you take
your time you are able to write passably, but that you don't always take
your time.

Dag
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy DeleteThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4rc4egFqk1csU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave DeleteThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:eiqe4e$15q$1@qmul...


>> as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world
>
> So we need to look at, say, how many people apply to Universities like
> oxford and Cambridge, and how many apply to, say, UEL.
>
> And if you actually look at those real world figures, you'll find that
> Oxford and Cambridge have _far_ more applicants than they can handle,
> while UEL has far far fewer.
>
> Which suggests that your theory needs rethinking; actually, better
> universities with higher standards are more desireable than those with
> lower standards.
Yes they are that's why one Oxford lecturer was charging £30,000 and he'd
guarantee a student a place.
You'll also notice that these most wanted univ. also have higher funding.
I went on a coursde with someone that did basically the same job as me but
at cambridge.
He had a budget of £100,000 for equipment every years. we don;t actually get
a budget at all
this year we splashed out and spend nearly £4,000 on lab equipment.


>> Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
>> That's the real world.
>
> No, Dave, it isn't. That's your theory, but it is contradicted by the
> facts.

No it's not.

Check the 'social standard of say the top univ. with your UEL.
I bet most of yuor studetns have a job that they have to do in order to
get through univ. I don';t think that is true of some of the top univ.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"Superfly Silverman" <notreal.DeleteThis@spamguard.com> wrote in message
news:zN34h.232$mR4.96@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> You are not very knowledgeable on this. People go to universities with
> prestige,
if they have the chance of course.

>ones that are viewed as having the best graduates. These
> schools are going to be tougher to get through because the schools know
> that more will be lined up to enter. The university in the city I live has
> people waiting to get in and they have tough standards.

Which one is that then ?
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4reimlFqmb0tU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:eit3d8$82d$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4rbsvqFqsc1aU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Let's see if you can work it out, Dave; you asked how one might improve
>>> the quality of basic ENGLISH grammar and spelling in schools, and I
>>> suggested adding grammar lessons to the curriculum.
>>> Which language do you think might prove most helpful for that?
>>
>> Depends on the students.
>
> In what way? Under what circumstances might a student's grasp of English
> grammar and spelling be improved more by lessons in the gramar and
> spelling of some language other than English, than by lessons in English
> grammar and spelling?

You yourself said an understanding of Latin could improve understanding
of the English language. I'd also assume if you were studying Egyptology
then an understanding of Egyptian may well be an advantage.
And perhaps and understandign of Hebrew might help to understand
the original Bible scripts. History scholars might find anciant languages
useful too.

You've even answered your own Q below.


>
>>> Having said that, learning foreign languages can be very helpful in
>>> improving a person's grasp of their own; Latin seems to have fallen off
>>> the curriculum in most schools, which is a real shame, as it can be
>>> extremely helpful both from the point of view of grammar and also in
>>> terms of vocabulary; because quite a lot of our language comes from
>>> Latin, having a grasp of Latin can often help one to understand
>>> unfamiliar (Latin-based) words, and to remember how to spell them too.


>
> A lot fo subjects are not intended to be vocational studies; rather,
> they're aimed at improving our overall ability to think, and to
> communicate.

That is true hobbies and interests can also do that.



>>> than instead of, normal lessons. Perhaps we need to address the issue by
>>> streaming people by ability rather than age (so you don't move from year
>>> three to year four until you have passed some sort of "end of year three
>>> standard"), and perhaps also we should introduce a german-style split
>>> school system, so that those who are more academic can go to an academic
>>> school while those who are more suited to vocational courses can study
>>> them and get good, meaningful qualifications in them, without those
>>> qualifications being looked down on as somehow less worth while than the
>>> academic ones.
>>
>> We did run that system until the some idiots started to control such
>> processes.
>
> Erm, well, not to the same extent as the Germans we didn't.
yeah but don't forget who won the war. ;-)



>>> Is it as high as 50% now? I know it went from about 5% in the 60s to
>>> about 30% at the end of the 90s; it may have hit 50% by now, I don't
>>> know.
>>
>> I'm not sure but the aim was higher than 50% they wanted to match
>> what other countries were doing, but they didn't really understand their
>> systems,
>> and how the social structure in the UK wasn't quite the same.
>
> Do you have a cite for any of this?

you could look yourself but I actually remember some of the ideas
and aims being banded about by government spokes persons.



>>> Well, no, not really; Universities are graded on the quality of their
>>> teaching and of their research, not on the grades of their graduates.
>>
>> Check out how the Times ES and other such publications access
>> universities.
>
> Do you mean "assess" rather than "access"? Could you provide a cite for
> what you're talking about, as you're not explaining it clearly at all?


You don't have teaching quality assessments ?



>>>> Skills should be encouraged but it should start and stop with arranging
>>>> letters on a page.
>>>
>>> Is there a missing "not" in there?
>> Yep a n't actually,
>
> Do you see why proofreading is important, Dave? You've written exactly the
> opposite of what you meant to say. If you'd read it before sending it, it
> wouldn't have said the opposite of what you meant.
But you worked it out didn;'t you.



>>> If so, I agree, reading and writing isn't the be-all and end-all. But
>>> those are very basic, very important skills to learn.
>> And some can't.
>
> Very few people actually aren't capable of learning to communicate
> clearly. There are some who have severe learning disabilities, but to be
> hoenst, not being able to read and write is the least of their problems.
> The _vast_ majority of people can, if they actually put the effort in,a dn
> if they receive decent teaching.
There's another problem in itself.


>>> You'll be able to adapt your scaletrix set more effectively if you can
>>> read the manual,
>> But I can read a manual and write them as I have done, but as you'll
>> notice
>> I might leave words out, I don't notice I've not typed them, even after
>> reading it back.
>
> Right. And that can mean that you say exactly the opposite of what you
> actually mean. Do you see why learning to write clearly is important?
Yes, and also reading clearly of course.


>>> and you'll be able to tell your friends how to do it more effectively if
>>> you can write clearly and in a way which can be understood.
>> That's one of the point I've been complaining about on our students
>> behalf the labsheet may have correct grammar and be perfectly spelt
>> but as for clarity they leave a lot to be desired because those writing
>> the labsheets have never done the lab they are writing about, they have
>> only done the theory and teach the theory.
>
> Does that matter, particularly?
Yes I think it does, well in Electroincs it does.

>I'm currently marking a whole load of lab reports; I haven't personally
>done the research that they're writing about, but I'm still perfectly able
>to grade their reports, and I'm perfectly capable of teaching them how to
>do the research adn how to write the reports.

But do the reults matter, or is it just an excercise.


>>>> That is one of the problems making colleges Universities takes more
>>>> than just
>>>> a change of name.
>>>
>>> Absolutely.
>> wow, then I wonder what genoisu thought it would.
>
> I don't think anyone thought any such thing; what makes you believe that
> someone did?

So what made them change it about ?
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!!