Somthing else for the spelling police!!!

"ReVulse" <ReVulse.RemoveThis@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.11.13.15.27.29.593609@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk...
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:53:35 +0000, whisky-dave wrote:
>
>> Well then they'd have to start addressing the actual point made
>> rather than being a spelling Nazi.
>
>> I don't know about that it can be interesting especially pointing out
>> the spelling Nazis errors in what they actually think is correct.
>
> Surely that's getting very close to invoking Godwin's Law ?

depends how you see Godwins law doesn't it, you do understand
Godwins law don't you.

> You do seem a little confused. An expectation of a basic level of
> education from others doesn't make someone a Nazi.

No, but when you insist that a non conformist can be a rebel then perhaps
it's time to fire up the case chambers for all those that don't conform to
your rules, because all you're really doing is eliminating rebels.
Rebels cause rebellion that's bad isn't it not confoming isn't it.



> I expect employees at my local bank to have basic numeracy skills and
> expect the mechanics at my garage to know about the workings of a car
> engine. It seems reasonable therefore to expect a contributor to a written
> forum to have some degree of spelling and grammar skill.

And I would expect those that boast of they English language skills
wouldn't say such things as rebels and non-conformists are the same.
I also wouldn't expect them to fall for such questions as what word changes
pronunciation if it starts with a capital letter.
I would expect them to see that the statement is NOT true, and perhaps even
come up with a more correctly worded question.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejck3f$nub$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4rrd76Fqh76hU1@mid.individual.net...
>> I meant that it can improve one's understanding of grammar and spelling.
>> Which bit of that is hard to understand?
> you said it would "improve understanding _more_ than English would."

No, Dave, I said that it _wouldn't_ improve understanding more than English
would.

>
>
>
>>>> Well, I'm used to trying to interpret very poor writing, because a lot
>>>> of our students write very poorly. For most people, it would be
>>>> difficult.
>>> Your saying university students write very poorly
>>
>> No, I'm saying _some_ University students write poorly.
> So the majority have very poor writing yes.

No, not the majority. Can you see that I haven't mentioned the majority at
all? So why are you suddenly suggesting that I said anything about the
majority?

>> A lot of them don't.
> So you must have quite a high failure rate then.

Yes, at UEL drop-out, failure, and repeat levels are quite high.

>> Do they? Do you have any evidence of that?
>
> Well only what I hear on radio, TV and the media.

And can you provide a cite, so that we can see this evidence too?

>> I can tell whether they understand it by the way they've written about
>> it. Similarly, if they haven't actually done it themselves, that shows in
>> the writing.
>
> How exactly.

Well, because I know what they're supposed to have done, and can see whether
they've described it correctly or not.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejco63$pmm$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4rrdf7FsliqhU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Right. So when you said that people would rather go to a University with
>> low standards than one with high standards,
>
> First show me where I have said that.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gothic/msg/da9a6a2a6ba502f1?as_umsg...eiqe4e$
"Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams here
than at a place down the road where do you think next years students that
want
to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more students
or one that
accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world

Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
That's the real world."



The implication here is very clearly that students would rather go to a
University with lower standards (and thus a higher pass rate) than one with
higher standards.

or is that not what you meant?



>
>>
>>>> Yes it is; your theory suggests that fewer people want to go to Oxford
>>>> and Cambridge than to UEl and so on.
>>>
>>> I HAVE NOT SAID THAT.
>>
>> No, you didn't say it,
> So don't say I did.

I didn't; I said that that's what your theory suggests. Because, well, it
is.

>>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "social standard"; could you explain?
>>> The type of social background the students come from.
>>
>> What about it?
> Think about it, give it a try.

I'm interested in what point you're trying to make, not what point I could
make of it. SBesides which, if I try to make a suggestion about what i think
you mean, you'll get upset and throw a tantrum. So please could you just
explain the point you think you have here?

>> And your point is? This has nothing to do with the standard of work that
>> is expected by different universities.
>
> yes it has, a university that can pick and choose it's students is most
> likely
> going to choose those with the highest possible grades or those that can
> pay
> the most

No it isn't; fees are standard across the board, they don't charge people
different rates. Anyone who goes to a given University to do a given course
pays the same amount, or has it paid for them if they have a grant or
scholarship, regardless of their social background.

or of course those that have good connections regarding their
> family.
>
> Perhaps you can tell me why you did or didn't go to a top uuniversity ?

Because I wanted a good degree, so I went to York, which has a very good
Psychology department and an excellent record for teaching.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

On 2006-11-14 19:23:36 +0000, "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> said:

>> Perhaps you can tell me why you did or didn't go to a top uuniversity ?
>
> Because I wanted a good degree, so I went to York, which has a very
> good Psychology department and an excellent record for teaching.

REDBRICK GOTH RACIST.

--
"The regulars in this group all come across as racist drunkards that
seem to hate any horror movie made after 1979 or isn't Italian." -
Superfly Silverman, 29/08/06
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy DeleteThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ruj2tFt6ifjU3@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave DeleteThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:ejck3f$nub$1@qmul...
>>


>>>> Your saying university students write very poorly
>>>
>>> No, I'm saying _some_ University students write poorly.
>> So the majority have very poor writing yes.
>
> No, not the majority. Can you see that I haven't mentioned the majority at
> all? So why are you suddenly suggesting that I said anything about the
> majority?

well it's just that you seem to be able to omit certain things.
You are focussing on the 'some' in order to make your point rather
than the majority of occurrences, a little like I did with the
words that are pronounced differently if they start with a capital.
The vast majority of words DO NOT change pronunciation
if they start with a capital letter.
And even when they do they aren't pronounced differently for that reason,
the reason you should pronounce them differently is because they mean
something different depending on the way they are pronounced.


>>> A lot of them don't.
>> So you must have quite a high failure rate then.
>
> Yes, at UEL drop-out, failure, and repeat levels are quite high.

Does that have any effect on applications for subsequent years


>
>>> Do they? Do you have any evidence of that?
>>
>> Well only what I hear on radio, TV and the media.
>
> And can you provide a cite, so that we can see this evidence too?
probably 100s
Can you find a cite that says standards are actually improving rather than
just
grades given.



>>> I can tell whether they understand it by the way they've written about
>>> it. Similarly, if they haven't actually done it themselves, that shows
>>> in the writing.
>>
>> How exactly.
>
> Well, because I know what they're supposed to have done, and can see
> whether they've described it correctly or not.

What if trhey copy form their mate or from a relation that did the course
last year ?
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejfbto$p2u$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4ruje1Fsnr10U3@mid.individual.net...
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gothic/msg/da9a6a2a6ba502f1?as_umsg...eiqe4e$
>> "Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams
>> here
>> than at a place down the road where do you think next years students that
>> want
>> to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more
>> students
>> or one that
>> accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
>> as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world
>>
>> Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
>> That's the real world."
>>
>>
>>
>> The implication here is very clearly that students would rather go to a
>> University with lower standards (and thus a higher pass rate) than one
>> with higher standards.
>>
>> or is that not what you meant?
>
> That is NOT what I meant and that should have been bloody obvious,
> to anyone with an ounce or perhaps 28 grams of sense.

So what _did_ you mean? I'm not the only one to have taken the above to mean
that you think people would rather go to a University with a lower standard,
so clearly you need to clarify your meaning, remembering that no-one here
can read your mind, so you actually have to explain your thoughts properly.

>> I'm interested in what point you're trying to make, not what point I
>> could make of it. SBesides which, if I try to make a suggestion about
>> what i think you mean, you'll get upset and throw a tantrum. So please
>> could you just explain the point you think you have here?
>
> Applying to an educational institute that has a low pass rate
> i.e if only 5% of the students get an A-level or a degree or a PhD
> then don't expect many applicants the following year.

And how does this relate to what we were actually talking about, which is
standards of teachign and entry requirements?

>>> yes it has, a university that can pick and choose it's students is most
>>> likely
>>> going to choose those with the highest possible grades or those that can
>>> pay
>>> the most
>>
>> No it isn't; fees are standard across the board, they don't charge people
>> different rates.
> We do.
> 'Local studetns about £3,000 overseas nearer £10,000.
> I get this info from the students themselves.

Yes, overseas students usually pay more than those from this country, but
othe than that, it's not a question of choosing "those that can pay the
most".
And if you think about it, if you were right, Universities would fill their
courses with foreign students before allowing British students in, wouldn't
they?

>> Because I wanted a good degree, so I went to York, which has a very good
>> Psychology department and an excellent record for teaching.
>>
>
> And what do you mean by "an excellent record for teaching"
> could you explain what you mean.

Universities are graded for the quality of their teaching, as well as for
their research. York consistently gets excellent scores for teaching.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.DeleteThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejfgtd$qrb$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.DeleteThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4ruj2tFt6ifjU3@mid.individual.net...
>> No, not the majority. Can you see that I haven't mentioned the majority
>> at all? So why are you suddenly suggesting that I said anything about the
>> majority?
>
> well it's just that you seem to be able to omit certain things.

No Dave, that's not it at all. You really need to stop making assumptions
about what other people mean, and read what they _say_ instead.

>> Yes, at UEL drop-out, failure, and repeat levels are quite high.
>
> Does that have any effect on applications for subsequent years

I haven't looked at the figures, so I can't accurately answer that. I do
know that we are rather over-subscribed in my department though.

>>> Well only what I hear on radio, TV and the media.
>>
>> And can you provide a cite, so that we can see this evidence too?
> probably 100s
> Can you find a cite that says standards are actually improving rather than
> just
> grades given.

Why would I? I haven't made any such claim.

>> Well, because I know what they're supposed to have done, and can see
>> whether they've described it correctly or not.
>
> What if trhey copy form their mate or from a relation that did the course
> last year ?

Plagiarism is actually easier to spot than you'd think, particularly given
how idiotic some plagiarists are; I've had work handed in which starts in
one font and suddenly changes to another, where they've copied and pasted
someone else's work. We change the practicals from one year to the next, so
copying from a previous year generally doesn't help much. And since each
marker marks several reports, and then cross-checks them with other markers,
we can often spot it when two students have shared their work too. It's not
100% un-cheatable, of course; nothing is.

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy RemoveThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4s138vFrv208U2@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave RemoveThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:ejfgtd$qrb$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy RemoveThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4ruj2tFt6ifjU3@mid.individual.net...
>>> No, not the majority. Can you see that I haven't mentioned the majority
>>> at all? So why are you suddenly suggesting that I said anything about
>>> the majority?
>>
>> well it's just that you seem to be able to omit certain things.
>
> No Dave, that's not it at all. You really need to stop making assumptions
> about what other people mean, and read what they _say_ instead.

Then do that yourself.

>
>>> Yes, at UEL drop-out, failure, and repeat levels are quite high.
>>
>> Does that have any effect on applications for subsequent years
>
> I haven't looked at the figures, so I can't accurately answer that. I do
> know that we are rather over-subscribed in my department though.

So are we. In fact we hadn't enough chairs in the lecture rooms some sat on
the floor others stood.

So what does that tell you about low grades ?


>> What if trhey copy form their mate or from a relation that did the course
>> last year ?
>
> Plagiarism is actually easier to spot than you'd think, particularly given
> how idiotic some plagiarists are; I've had work handed in which starts in
> one font and suddenly changes to another, where they've copied and pasted
> someone else's work.
yes I know we have that here too, one studetn even forgot to remove
the name from the top of the page.

>We change the practicals from one year to the next,
We don't. can''t really afford to.

>so copying from a previous year generally doesn't help much. And since each
>marker marks several reports, and then cross-checks them with other
>markers, we can often spot it when two students have shared their work too.
>It's not 100% un-cheatable, of course; nothing is.

True we also use the Google test, and have dedicated software to check
as more and more work is submitted electronically via PDFs
I bet we can check more papers than you can using this method.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave RemoveThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejhr51$lq1$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy RemoveThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4s138vFrv208U2@mid.individual.net...
>> No Dave, that's not it at all. You really need to stop making assumptions
>> about what other people mean, and read what they _say_ instead.
>
> Then do that yourself.

I am doing; that's why I keep asking you to explain what you mean, rather
than simply making assumptions about it.

>> I haven't looked at the figures, so I can't accurately answer that. I do
>> know that we are rather over-subscribed in my department though.
>
> So are we. In fact we hadn't enough chairs in the lecture rooms some sat
> on
> the floor others stood.
>
> So what does that tell you about low grades ?

Nothing at all.

>>We change the practicals from one year to the next,
> We don't. can''t really afford to.

How much does it cost to set up a practical?

>
>>so copying from a previous year generally doesn't help much. And since
>>each marker marks several reports, and then cross-checks them with other
>>markers, we can often spot it when two students have shared their work
>>too. It's not 100% un-cheatable, of course; nothing is.
>
> True we also use the Google test, and have dedicated software to check
> as more and more work is submitted electronically via PDFs
> I bet we can check more papers than you can using this method.

*heh* Gosh Dave, that's so very impressive, I bet everyone's amazed. Most
universities (UEl included) use plagiarism software of some sort these days.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that your students submit PDFs though; aren't
those harder to check than just normal word documents, as well as more
hassle to create?

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy.RemoveThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4s12lfFt9a1qU2@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.RemoveThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:ejfbto$p2u$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy.RemoveThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4ruje1Fsnr10U3@mid.individual.net...
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gothic/msg/da9a6a2a6ba502f1?as_umsg...eiqe4e$
>>> "Won;t work. If out prospects states that less people pass their exams
>>> here
>>> than at a place down the road where do you think next years students
>>> that
>>> want
>>> to get a degree will take their custom, to a univ. that fails more
>>> students
>>> or one that
>>> accepts a higher standard at the same grade cert.
>>> as I say we need to know what';s happening in the real world
>>>
>>> Studetns go to the univ. with the higher pass rate stats not the lower.
>>> That's the real world."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The implication here is very clearly that students would rather go to a
>>> University with lower standards (and thus a higher pass rate) than one
>>> with higher standards.
>>>
>>> or is that not what you meant?
>>
>> That is NOT what I meant and that should have been bloody obvious,
>> to anyone with an ounce or perhaps 28 grams of sense.
>
> So what _did_ you mean? I'm not the only one to have taken the above to
> mean that you think people would rather go to a University with a lower
> standard, so clearly you need to clarify your meaning, remembering that
> no-one here can read your mind, so you actually have to explain your
> thoughts properly.

Try this forget education as you're obviously confused by it.

If yuo want to know how to drive and decided you'd go to a driving school
to be taught which driving school would you most likely to choose.
(other that for cost)

Driving school AAAA where 5% of people get thorough
or school BBBB where 90% of people get thorough

>
> And how does this relate to what we were actually talking about, which is
> standards of teachign and entry requirements?

If your school keeps failing people is that good for promotion prospects
would it lok good on yuor CV if only 10% of your studetns passed ?
Or would it look better if 90% passed.?


>>> No it isn't; fees are standard across the board, they don't charge
>>> people different rates.
>> We do.
>> 'Local studetns about £3,000 overseas nearer £10,000.
>> I get this info from the students themselves.
>
> Yes, overseas students usually pay more than those from this country, but
> othe than that, it's not a question of choosing "those that can pay the
> most".

we have far more overseas student than home students.


> And if you think about it, if you were right, Universities would fill
> their courses with foreign students before allowing British students in,
> wouldn't they?
Yes they do.




>>> Because I wanted a good degree, so I went to York, which has a very good
>>> Psychology department and an excellent record for teaching.
>>>
>>
>> And what do you mean by "an excellent record for teaching"
>> could you explain what you mean.
>
> Universities are graded for the quality of their teaching, as well as for
> their research. York consistently gets excellent scores for teaching.

Cite ?
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave DeleteThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
news:ejhrod$m0m$1@qmul...
>
> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy DeleteThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4s12lfFt9a1qU2@mid.individual.net...
>> So what _did_ you mean? I'm not the only one to have taken the above to
>> mean that you think people would rather go to a University with a lower
>> standard, so clearly you need to clarify your meaning, remembering that
>> no-one here can read your mind, so you actually have to explain your
>> thoughts properly.
>
> Try this forget education as you're obviously confused by it.

No, Dave, I'm asking you to explain what you meant. It's not difficult; you
did it badly the first time round, but I suspect that you can manage better
if you try.

>> And how does this relate to what we were actually talking about, which is
>> standards of teachign and entry requirements?
>
> If your school keeps failing people is that good for promotion prospects
> would it lok good on yuor CV if only 10% of your studetns passed ?
> Or would it look better if 90% passed.?

If 90% pass because the standards have dropped, then it doesn't look good at
all. If 10% pass, but those that do come out better than students fom any
other University, and are more employable and attract better salaries, then
people will still want to go there and try to be among the 10%.

>>> Yes, overseas students usually pay more than those from this country,
>>> but
>> othe than that, it's not a question of choosing "those that can pay the
>> most".
>
> we have far more overseas student than home students.

Are you sure that's the case?

>>> And what do you mean by "an excellent record for teaching"
>>> could you explain what you mean.
>>
>> Universities are graded for the quality of their teaching, as well as for
>> their research. York consistently gets excellent scores for teaching.
>
> Cite ?

http://www.york.ac.uk/admin/presspr/pressreleases/timesleague.htm
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2004/table/0,,1222167,00.html

How they come up with the ratings is explained here;
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2004/story/0,14612,1222...,00.htm
You'll note that they don't use "number of students who pass".

H
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy DeleteThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4s39uiFtk28dU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave DeleteThis @final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:ejhr51$lq1$1@qmul...
>>
>> "H Duffy" <hester_duffy DeleteThis @nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4s138vFrv208U2@mid.individual.net...
>>> No Dave, that's not it at all. You really need to stop making
>>> assumptions about what other people mean, and read what they _say_
>>> instead.
>>
>> Then do that yourself.
>
> I am doing; that's why I keep asking you to explain what you mean, rather
> than simply making assumptions about it.

I read the question asked. Why didn't you.



>
>>>We change the practicals from one year to the next,
>> We don't. can''t really afford to.
>
> How much does it cost to set up a practical?
Quite a lot but it depends on the practical.

This year we had to buy oscilloscopes to replace ones that had gone faulty.
We only brought TEN as we didn't really have the money to buy any more.
I'd like us to have boaugh about 16 as we tend to run 15 groups at a times.
This means the studetns have the same equipments.
We brought the cheapest on teh market which were about £190.
We really should have brought decent ones that would be nearer £600 each.

One of the most expensive labs we used to run we have cancelled because of
cost.
The equipment was from the 70s and was no longer working within the
specifications.
To set up one of these microwave experiments would have been around
£10-20,000.
We use to run THREE sets at a time.

There's many other examples . One being why we chose to buy 30 new digital
meters
at £8.50 but we really needed meters that cost £200 each as the ones we
brought
can't do the job anywhere near as well.
We bought software too one package which includes a licence for about 20
copies
was £10,000.
Perhaps in your profession all a 'lab' cost is the price of a cli board and
some A4 paper
and a cup of coffee to keep the researcher happy while asking questions in
the union bar
I'm not sure. Perhaps you'd care to tell me how much one of your labs cost.
If fact last year I believe one of the reason a student could get his
project working is because
we couldn't afford a decent power supply.


>> True we also use the Google test, and have dedicated software to check
>> as more and more work is submitted electronically via PDFs
>> I bet we can check more papers than you can using this method.
>
> *heh* Gosh Dave, that's so very impressive, I bet everyone's amazed. Most
> universities (UEl included) use plagiarism software of some sort these
> days.
yes I know we've been using it for a number of years and we use barcode
scanners.
we are also using barcode scanner when the studetns arrive in the lab so we
know they
have actually done the lab rather than their froend doing it for them.

> I'm a bit surprised to hear that your students submit PDFs though; aren't
> those harder to check than just normal word documents, as well as more
> hassle to create?
Not not really, you do know how much it cost to have word on 100 PCs don't
you.
Word isn';t teh only word processor on teh market you know. There are even
free ones
from the linux community, and many others that run on windows systems too.
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!! 

"H Duffy" <hester_duffy.RemoveThis@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4s3ab0FtqkvsU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave.RemoveThis@final.front.ear> wrote in message
> news:ejhrod$m0m$1@qmul...
>>

>> Try this forget education as you're obviously confused by it.
>
> No, Dave, I'm asking you to explain what you meant. It's not difficult;
> you did it badly the first time round, but I suspect that you can manage
> better if you try.

You still wouldn't understand would you.



> http://www.york.ac.uk/admin/presspr/pressreleases/timesleague.htm
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2004/table/0,,1222167,00.html
>
> How they come up with the ratings is explained here;
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2004/story/0,14612,1222...,00.htm
> You'll note that they don't use "number of students who pass".

I did notice that that my college was no 76 and York was 118 .
 >> Stay informed about: Somthing else for the spelling police!!!