Welcome to MovieandPop.com!
FAQFAQ      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in

Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_

 
Goto page 1, 2
   Movie Forums (Home) -> Charlie Chaplin RSS
Next:  Still Another First National Theory!  
Author Message
Constance Kuriyama

External


Since: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 671



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:24 am
Post subject: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_
Archived from groups: alt>movies>chaplin (more info?)

I took Jeffrey Vance up on his invitation to e-mail him, and
asked him some questions about the two versions of _The
Gold Rush_.

According to Jeffrey, Chaplin was so convinced that his
re-issue was the version of the film that would please
future audiences that he destroyed the negatives of '25
after the success of the reissue was apparent.

I can hear you gasp. But bear in mind Jeffrey's observation
that Chaplin was not an archivist or a film historian. He
was an artist who gauged his success partly by audience
response, and to all appearances audiences loved the sound
version of _The Gold Rush_.

Jeffrey also mentioned that Chaplin cut the film to 75
minutes so that it would fit into the double bill programs
customary in the early forties, thus making more bookings
possible. I take this to mean that if a longer length had been
customary, he might not have cut it at all. At the very
least, he might have kept the original ending.

But on reflection, it seems to me that he had a good sense
what he could do without. '42 is a very lean cut.
What would we scrap if we put the Georgia-Jack byplay
back in?

I wonder if Chaplin thought that by destroying the
negatives of '25, he was also insuring that only one version of
the film would exist. Therefore the copyright on '42 would
be sufficient. This may--besides the disruptions in his
personal life--have influenced his letting the copyright
on '25 lapse in '53.

But of course Rohauer patched together a version of '25
out of outtakes which were supposed to be destroyed,
and Chaplin was then obliged to take legal action
against Rohauer to prevent the screening of this truly
illegitimate, but fairly accurate, version of '25.

Rohauer's concoction became the partial basis for all
serious reconstructions of _The Gold Rush_, including the
most recent one by Brownlow and Gill, of which it comprises
22%.

As for Uli's query, according to the Gill article Chaplin
had mostly used the same takes for '42 that he used in
'25, "but covered by the second camera." I suppose this
means that'25 is A footage and '42 is B footage, not the
other way around. However, he sometimes used entirely
different takes. The two versions of the roll dance are
not merely taken from different angles but from different
distances, and appear to be different takes, as is part of the
sequence of cooking the shoe, which Rick mentioned
a few weeks ago. And how do we reconcile this with
Gill's other statement that Rohauer reconstructed the
film from outtakes--which of course he would have had
to do if the original negative was destroyed in the
forties? Or were they not outtakes from '25, but
outtakes from '42-in which case Chaplin did not
destroy them in the forties, but decided to let
them be destroyed in '53.

Jeffrey no doubt knows more, and if he doesn't
respond to this post I'll e-mail him again.

Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."

 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Shush

External


Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 21



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Constance Kuriyama wrote...

> I took Jeffrey Vance up on his invitation to e-mail him, and
> asked him some questions about the two versions of _The
> Gold Rush_.
>
> According to Jeffrey, Chaplin was so convinced that his
> re-issue was the version of the film that would please
> future audiences that he destroyed the negatives of '25
> after the success of the reissue was apparent.
>
> I can hear you gasp. But bear in mind Jeffrey's observation
> that Chaplin was not an archivist or a film historian.


But Chaplin *was* an archivist of his own films. He saved the
unreleasable "Sea Gulls," he saved out-takes from the old Mutual days,
he saved odds and ends like "How to Make Movies," but he went out of
his way to destroy the negs of "The Gold Rush"??

That just doesn't add up for me. I'd have to hear it confirmed by
Shepard or Robinson before I'd buy that one.



--Shush--

 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Mr. Moose

External


Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 40



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:45 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 6 Aug 2003 00:24:56 GMT, do481 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance
Kuriyama) wrote:

<snip snip>

>But of course Rohauer patched together a version of '25
>out of outtakes which were supposed to be destroyed,
>and Chaplin was then obliged to take legal action
>against Rohauer to prevent the screening of this truly
>illegitimate, but fairly accurate, version of '25.
>
What? How could Rohauer do this unless he had the outtakes for Gold
Rush in the first place? This makes absolutely no sense (to me, at
least). I can't imagine this ever really came to pass - Rohauer's
version must have come from other sources. (Foreign prints, for
instance.)

Hey, has anybody ever confirmed how many different prints there were
of Gold Rush in '25? I can't imagine that two negatives woudl have
been enough in this situation, Chaplin was just too popular. Perhaps
there were three, even four different "first versions", and Rohauer
made use of some of these.

Mark
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Ulrich Ruedel

External


Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:08 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Constance Kuriyama" <do481 RemoveThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote

> As for Uli's query, according to the Gill article Chaplin
> had mostly used the same takes for '42 that he used in
> '25, "but covered by the second camera." I suppose this
> means that'25 is A footage and '42 is B footage, not the
> other way around.

This, of course, might be in line with the fact that the mysterious
"Japanese" UA neg used by Brownlow / Gill is, as David Shepard confirmed in
an a.m.s. posting from 2002-01-13, the only full aperture neg of the '42.
Being Japanese, it may have been an export (B?) neg of the '25 -- unless of
course it was only in '42 or afterwards that it was sent to Japan for some
reason before being returned to the CC vauklts.
(and BTW I still hope Josephine Chaplin was wrong in stating Brownlow-Gill
cut up this best surviving material of the '42 for their restoration!)

> And how do we reconcile this with
> Gill's other statement that Rohauer reconstructed the
> film from outtakes--which of course he would have had
> to do if the original negative was destroyed in the
> forties?

Or if he did not have any access to it, or at least a print of it to make a
dupe. But that inconsistency in the Gill article -- that, if Rohauer's claim
is true, the existing silent versions of GR (at least before B&G) must be
the most corrputed ones around, or in other words, the real silent GR does
not survive at all -- I've never been able to figure out. I guess Rohauer's
statement was just a legal trick?

Maybe Jeffrey can finally clarify this for us...

By the way, the Wiesbaden print of the Rohauer version must be the German
Atlas re-release from the 60s, which resulted in a lawsuit from Chaplin.
(Atlas' more or less parallel re-release of THE GENERAL had nicer effects,
strongly encouraging Keaton's 'rediscovery') That's why the Atlas print
disappeared from theatres, although S8 excerpt were available in photo
stores well into the 80s.

Uli
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Constance Kuriyama

External


Since: Jul 07, 2003
Posts: 87



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:08 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Ulrich Ruedel" <uruedel.DeleteThis@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<bgqd2n$are$04$1@news.t-online.com>...
> "Constance Kuriyama" <do481.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote
>
> > As for Uli's query, according to the Gill article Chaplin
> > had mostly used the same takes for '42 that he used in
> > '25, "but covered by the second camera." I suppose this
> > means that'25 is A footage and '42 is B footage, not the
> > other way around.
>
> This, of course, might be in line with the fact that the mysterious
> "Japanese" UA neg used by Brownlow / Gill is, as David Shepard confirmed in
> an a.m.s. posting from 2002-01-13, the only full aperture neg of the '42.
> Being Japanese, it may have been an export (B?) neg of the '25 -- unless of
> course it was only in '42 or afterwards that it was sent to Japan for some
> reason before being returned to the CC vauklts.

It was certainly a B neg according to Gill, and you're right, this would
fit in with its being meant for Japan. But it was the '42 cut, so why it was
full aperture I can't imagine.

> (and BTW I still hope Josephine Chaplin was wrong in stating Brownlow-Gill
> cut up this best surviving material of the '42 for their restoration!)

They used it as the basis for their restoration, but I would hope they did
their cutting on a work print and made a duplicate neg., or better still,
did their editing on a computer.

> > And how do we reconcile this with
> > Gill's other statement that Rohauer reconstructed the
> > film from outtakes--which of course he would have had
> > to do if the original negative was destroyed in the
> > forties?
>
> Or if he did not have any access to it, or at least a print of it to make a
> dupe. But that inconsistency in the Gill article -- that, if Rohauer's claim
> is true, the existing silent versions of GR (at least before B&G) must be
> the most corrputed ones around, or in other words, the real silent GR does
> not survive at all -- I've never been able to figure out. I guess Rohauer's
> statement was just a legal trick?

Or else he considered the material cut from '42 outtakes, even though it
was part of the '25 version. I can't see any legal advantage in his
misrepresenting what he had illicitly acquired in any case.

Connie K.
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
George Shelps

External


Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Shush wrote:

>But Chaplin *was* an archivist of his own
>films. He saved the unreleasable "Sea
>Gulls,"

"Unreleasable?" I doubt it. Nothing directed by Sternberg in that
period
could conceivably have been "unreleasable."

Sternberg hints in his autobiography
that Edna's performance showed the
effects of her alcoholism---and since
Chaplin made it partly to re-establish
her, he decided not to release it.


> he saved out-takes from the old Mutual
>days, he saved odds and ends like "How
>to Make Movies," but he went out of his
>way to destroy the negs of "The Gold
>Rush"??
      
>That just doesn't add up for me. I'd have
>to hear it confirmed by Shepard or
>Robinson before I'd buy that one.

Unlike the other things he saved, THE GOLD RUSH was commercially viable
still. I think Chaplin simply was concerned about potential piracy with
a
viable original negative around.

I once asked Danny Selznick about the
cuts made in GONE WITH THE WIND
by his father after the previews of the film. I believe it was shortened
by a half hour. Stills do exist of the deleted scenes (such as Belle
Watling nursing wounded soldiers)

I asked him if these out-takes might still
exist somewhere. He laughed and said his father would have destroyed
them
because of DOS's fear that they might fall
into the hands of film pirates who could
exploit the popularity of GWTW by making a black market in the snips.

I think CC's rationale might have been the same.

I deplore his decision, nonetheless, as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
of the saved
print of SEA GULLS.
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
RFCSAC627N

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 175



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

>From: Mr. Moose mutantmoose.RemoveThis@yahoo.com

>Kuriyama) wrote:
>
><snip snip>
>
>>But of course Rohauer patched together a version of '25
>>out of outtakes which were supposed to be destroyed,
>>and Chaplin was then obliged to take legal action
>>against Rohauer to prevent the screening of this truly
>>illegitimate, but fairly accurate, version of '25.
>>
>What? How could Rohauer do this unless he had the outtakes for Gold
>Rush in the first place? This makes absolutely no sense (to me, at
>least). I can't imagine this ever really came to pass - Rohauer's
>version must have come from other sources. (Foreign prints, for
>instance.)
>
>Hey, has anybody ever confirmed how many different prints there were
>of Gold Rush in '25? I can't imagine that two negatives woudl have
>been enough in this situation, Chaplin was just too popular. Perhaps
>there were three, even four different "first versions", and Rohauer
>made use of some of these.

Rohauer drove a truck into the Chaplin studio circa 1954 and cleaned out the
film in CC's vault that had been scheduled to be destroyed. That's how he got
hold of the Mutual outtakes.
You might check Google. I believe that David Shepard wrote about this a
couple of years ago.
Richard Carnahan
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
David Totheroh

External


Since: Jul 07, 2003
Posts: 144



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mr. Moose <mutantmoose RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<8j42jvsjnh5svknv1ikqm3vr20555drs9n RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
> On 6 Aug 2003 00:24:56 GMT, do481 RemoveThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance
> Kuriyama) wrote:
>
> <snip snip>
>
> >But of course Rohauer patched together a version of '25
> >out of outtakes which were supposed to be destroyed,
> >and Chaplin was then obliged to take legal action
> >against Rohauer to prevent the screening of this truly
> >illegitimate, but fairly accurate, version of '25.
> >
> What? How could Rohauer do this unless he had the outtakes for Gold
> Rush in the first place? This makes absolutely no sense (to me, at
> least). I can't imagine this ever really came to pass - Rohauer's
> version must have come from other sources. (Foreign prints, for
> instance.)
>
> Hey, has anybody ever confirmed how many different prints there were
> of Gold Rush in '25? I can't imagine that two negatives woudl have
> been enough in this situation, Chaplin was just too popular. Perhaps
> there were three, even four different "first versions", and Rohauer
> made use of some of these.
>
> Mark

Production stills show 3 cameras set up on some of the location
scenes, but there are also some scenes with only one camera evident.
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Feuillade

External


Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 221



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

G-HELPS DeleteThis @webtv.net (George Shelps) writes:

> Shush wrote:

>> But Chaplin *was* an archivist
>> of his own films. He saved
>> the unreleasable "Sea Gulls,"

> "Unreleasable?" I doubt it.
> Nothing directed by Sternberg in
> that period could conceivably have
> been "unreleasable."

You're wrong, George.

It is *quite* conceivable. In fact, there are plenty of examples of artists
following up a masterpiece with a piece of utter dreck.

Trollope followed up "Framley Parsonage" (one of his masterpieces) with "The
Struggles of Brown, Jones and Robinson" (one of the worst novels of the entire
Victorian period).

Both Orson Welles and Woody Allen have made their worst films close upon some
of their best ("Shadows and Fog" and "Husbands and Wives" in the same year).

Spielberg followed up "Close Encounters" with "1941."

Need I go on?

> Sternberg hints in his autobiography
> that Edna's performance showed the
> effects of her alcoholism---and since
> Chaplin made it partly to re-establish
> her, he decided not to release it.

That sounds like Sternberg saving face. Or trying to, anyway.

That's not to say that it's not true. It could go either way. We'll never
know.

>> he saved out-takes from the old
>> Mutual days, he saved odds and
>> ends like "How to Make Movies,"
>> but he went out of his way to
>> destroy the negs of "The Gold
>> Rush"??

>> That just doesn't add up for me. I'd
>> have to hear it confirmed by Shepard
>> or Robinson before I'd buy that one.

I believe Mr. Vance has debunked this theory.

> Unlike the other things he saved,
> THE GOLD RUSH was commercially
> viable still. I think Chaplin simply
> was concerned about potential piracy
> with a viable original negative around.

You're probably right.

> I once asked Danny Selznick about
> the cuts made in GONE WITH
> THE WIND by his father after
> the previews of the film. I believe it
> was shortened by a half hour. Stills
> do exist of the deleted scenes (such
> as Belle Watling nursing wounded
> soldiers)

> I asked him if these out-takes might
> still exist somewhere. He laughed
> and said his father would have
> destroyed them because of DOS's
> fear that they might fall into the hands
> of film pirates who could exploit
> the popularity of GWTW by making
> a black market in the snips.

> I think CC's rationale might have
> been the same.

You're probably right.

> I deplore his decision, nonetheless,
> as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
> of the saved print of SEA GULLS.

I agree completely.


Tom Moran

"The people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders...All you have to do is to tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger."

Hermann Goering
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
George Shelps

External


Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

feuillade DeleteThis @aol.com (Feuillade)
wrote:

>G-HELPS@webtv.net (George Shelps)
>writes:

>>Shush wrote:

>>>But Chaplin *was* an archivist
>>>of his own films. He saved
>>>the unreleasable "Sea Gulls,"

>>"Unreleasable?" I doubt it.
>>Nothing directed by Sternberg in
>>that period could conceivably have
>>been "unreleasable."

>You're wrong, George.

>It is *quite* conceivable. In fact, there
>are plenty of examples of artists
>following up a masterpiece with a piece
>of utter dreck.
>Trollope followed up "Framley
>Parsonage" (one of his masterpieces)
>with "The Struggles of Brown, Jones and
>Robinson" (one of the worst novels of
>the entire Victorian period).


>Both Orson Welles and Woody Allen
>have made their worst films close upon
>some of their best ("Shadows and Fog"
>and "Husbands and Wives" in the same
>year).
>Spielberg followed up "Close
>Encounters" with "1941."

>Need I go on?

But none so bad as to be unreleasable.

>>Sternberg hints in his autobiography
>>that Edna's performance showed the
>>effects of her alcoholism---and since
>>Chaplin made it partly to re-establish
>>her, he decided not to release it.

>That sounds like Sternberg saving face.
>Or trying to, anyway.

He said that he had to have kettledrums
played to distract Edna so she could
focus and give a performance.



>>>That's not to say that it's not true. It
>>>could go either way. We'll never know. >>>he saved out-takes from the
old
>>>Mutual days, he saved odds and
>>>ends like "How to Make Movies,"
>>>but he went out of his way to
>>>destroy the negs of "The Gold
>>>Rush"??

>>>That just doesn't add up for me. I'd
>>>have to hear it confirmed by Shepard
>>>or Robinson before I'd buy that one.

>I believe Mr. Vance has debunked this
>theory.

>>Unlike the other things he saved,
>>THE GOLD RUSH was commercially
>>viable still. I think Chaplin simply
>>was concerned about potential piracy
>>with a viable original negative around.

>You're probably right.

>>I once asked Danny Selznick about
>>the cuts made in GONE WITH
>>THE WIND by his father after
>>the previews of the film. I believe it
>>was shortened by a half hour. Stills
>>do exist of the deleted scenes (such
>>as Belle Watling nursing wounded
>>soldiers)

>>I asked him if these out-takes might
>>still exist somewhere. He laughed
>>and said his father would have
>>destroyed them because of DOS's
>>fear that they might fall into the hands
>>of film pirates who could exploit
>>the popularity of GWTW by making
>>a black market in the snips.

>>I think CC's rationale might have
>>been the same.

>You're probably right.

>>I deplore his decision, nonetheless,
>>as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
>>of the saved print of SEA GULLS.

>I agree completely.

Ooops! Glory be! Was that three---count 'em--three statements of
agreement?
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Feuillade

External


Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 221



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

G-HELPS.RemoveThis@webtv.net (George Shelps) writes:

> feuillade.RemoveThis@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:

>> G-HELPS.RemoveThis@webtv.net (George Shelps)
>> writes:

>>> Shush wrote:

>>>> But Chaplin *was* an archivist
>>>> of his own films. He saved
>>>> the unreleasable "Sea Gulls,"

>>> "Unreleasable?" I doubt it.
>>> Nothing directed by Sternberg in
>>> that period could conceivably have
>>> been "unreleasable."

>> You're wrong, George.

>> It is *quite* conceivable. In fact, there
>> are plenty of examples of artists
>> following up a masterpiece with a piece
>> of utter dreck.
>> Trollope followed up "Framley
>> Parsonage" (one of his masterpieces)
>> with "The Struggles of Brown,
>> Jones and Robinson" (one of the
>> worst novels of the entire
>> Victorian period).

>> Both Orson Welles and Woody Allen
>> have made their worst films close upon
>> some of their best ("Shadows
>> and Fog" and "Husbands and Wives"
>> in the same year).
>> Spielberg followed up "Close
>> Encounters" with "1941."

>> Need I go on?

> But none so bad as to be unreleasable.

Unreleasable is in the eye of the beholder.

Ned Tannen famously thought "American Grafitti" was unreleasable.

>>> Sternberg hints in his autobiography
>>> that Edna's performance showed the
>>> effects of her alcoholism---and since
>>> Chaplin made it partly to re-establish
>>> her, he decided not to release it.

>> That sounds like Sternberg saving face.
>> Or trying to, anyway.

> He said that he had to have kettledrums
> played to distract Edna so she could
> focus and give a performance.

<snip>

>>> Unlike the other things he saved,
>>> THE GOLD RUSH was commercially
>>> viable still. I think Chaplin simply
>>> was concerned about potential piracy
>>> with a viable original negative around.

>> You're probably right.

>>> I once asked Danny Selznick about
>>> the cuts made in GONE WITH
>>> THE WIND by his father after
>>> the previews of the film. I believe it
>>> was shortened by a half hour. Stills
>>> do exist of the deleted scenes (such
>>> as Belle Watling nursing wounded
>>> soldiers)

>>> I asked him if these out-takes might
>>> still exist somewhere. He laughed
>>> and said his father would have
>>> destroyed them because of DOS's
>>> fear that they might fall into the hands
>>> of film pirates who could exploit
>>> the popularity of GWTW by making
>>> a black market in the snips.

>>> I think CC's rationale might have
>>> been the same.

>> You're probably right.

>>> I deplore his decision, nonetheless,
>>> as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
>>> of the saved print of SEA GULLS.

>> I agree completely.

> Ooops! Glory be! Was
> that three---count 'em--three
> statements of agreement?

Yes there were, George. When you're right, I tend to say so.

You'll note it doesn't happen all that often. :)


Tom Moran

"The people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders...All you have to do is to tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger."

Hermann Goering
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
George Shelps

External


Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tom Moran wrote re SEA GULLS:

>>>>Both Orson Welles and Woody Allen
>>>>have made their worst films close
>>>>upon
>>>>  some of their best ("Shadows
>>>>and Fog" and "Husbands and Wives"
>>>>in the same year).
>>>>Spielberg followed up "Close
>>>>Encounters" with "1941."

>>>>Need I go on?

>>>But none so bad as to be unreleasable.

>>Unreleasable is in the eye of the beholder.

>Ned Tannen famously thought "American
>Grafitti" was unreleasable.

Not precisely. He thought that it was
theatrically unreleasable, yes, but good
enough for a TV movie slot.

He never recommended shelving it.
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Constance Kuriyama

External


Since: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 671



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:20 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mr. Moose (mutantmoose@yahoo.com) writes:
> On 6 Aug 2003 00:24:56 GMT, do481.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance
> Kuriyama) wrote:
>
> <snip snip>
>
>>But of course Rohauer patched together a version of '25
>>out of outtakes which were supposed to be destroyed,
>>and Chaplin was then obliged to take legal action
>>against Rohauer to prevent the screening of this truly
>>illegitimate, but fairly accurate, version of '25.
>>
> What? How could Rohauer do this unless he had the outtakes for Gold
> Rush in the first place? This makes absolutely no sense (to me, at
> least). I can't imagine this ever really came to pass - Rohauer's
> version must have come from other sources. (Foreign prints, for
> instance.)
>
> Hey, has anybody ever confirmed how many different prints there were
> of Gold Rush in '25? I can't imagine that two negatives woudl have
> been enough in this situation, Chaplin was just too popular. Perhaps
> there were three, even four different "first versions", and Rohauer
> made use of some of these.
>
> Mark

The story is that he bought up the Chaplin stuff that was supposed
to be destroyed from the company that was supposed to destroy it.
The bundle included quite a bit of _Gold Rush_ material. This is pretty
common knowledge, not a scoop. I believe it also included some
Mutual stuff which Chaplin was not supposed to have, but did anyhow.

Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Constance Kuriyama

External


Since: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 671



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:34 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

George Shelps (G-HELPS@webtv.net) writes:
> feuillade DeleteThis @aol.com (Feuillade)
> wrote:
>
>>G-HELPS@webtv.net (George Shelps)
>>writes:
>
>>>Shush wrote:
>
>>>>But Chaplin *was* an archivist
>>>>of his own films. He saved
>>>>the unreleasable "Sea Gulls,"
>
>>>"Unreleasable?" I doubt it.
>>>Nothing directed by Sternberg in
>>>that period could conceivably have
>>>been "unreleasable."
>
>>You're wrong, George.
>
>>It is *quite* conceivable. In fact, there
>>are plenty of examples of artists
>>following up a masterpiece with a piece
>>of utter dreck.
>>Trollope followed up "Framley
>>Parsonage" (one of his masterpieces)
>>with "The Struggles of Brown, Jones and
>>Robinson" (one of the worst novels of
>>the entire Victorian period).
>
>
>>Both Orson Welles and Woody Allen
>>have made their worst films close upon
>>some of their best ("Shadows and Fog"
>>and "Husbands and Wives" in the same
>>year).
>>Spielberg followed up "Close
>>Encounters" with "1941."
>
>>Need I go on?
>
> But none so bad as to be unreleasable.
>
>>>Sternberg hints in his autobiography
>>>that Edna's performance showed the
>>>effects of her alcoholism---and since
>>>Chaplin made it partly to re-establish
>>>her, he decided not to release it.
>
>>That sounds like Sternberg saving face.
>>Or trying to, anyway.
>
> He said that he had to have kettledrums
> played to distract Edna so she could
> focus and give a performance.

If the liquor didn't finish her, that would
do it. What a strange strategy.


>>>>That's not to say that it's not true. It
>>>>could go either way. We'll never know. >>>he saved out-takes from the
> old
>>>>Mutual days, he saved odds and
>>>>ends like "How to Make Movies,"
>>>>but he went out of his way to
>>>>destroy the negs of "The Gold
>>>>Rush"??
>
>>>>That just doesn't add up for me. I'd
>>>>have to hear it confirmed by Shepard
>>>>or Robinson before I'd buy that one.
>
>>I believe Mr. Vance has debunked this
>>theory.
>
>>>Unlike the other things he saved,
>>>THE GOLD RUSH was commercially
>>>viable still. I think Chaplin simply
>>>was concerned about potential piracy
>>>with a viable original negative around.
>
>>You're probably right.
>
>>>I once asked Danny Selznick about
>>>the cuts made in GONE WITH
>>>THE WIND by his father after
>>>the previews of the film. I believe it
>>>was shortened by a half hour. Stills
>>>do exist of the deleted scenes (such
>>>as Belle Watling nursing wounded
>>>soldiers)
>
>>>I asked him if these out-takes might
>>>still exist somewhere. He laughed
>>>and said his father would have
>>>destroyed them because of DOS's
>>>fear that they might fall into the hands
>>>of film pirates who could exploit
>>>the popularity of GWTW by making
>>>a black market in the snips.
>
>>>I think CC's rationale might have
>>>been the same.
>
>>You're probably right.
>
>>>I deplore his decision, nonetheless,
>>>as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
>>>of the saved print of SEA GULLS.
>
>>I agree completely.
>
> Ooops! Glory be! Was that three---count 'em--three statements of
> agreement?

You can make very good sense when you talk about films.

Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Feuillade

External


Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 221



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

do481 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance Kuriyama) writes:

> George Shelps (G-HELPS@webtv.net) writes:

>> feuillade DeleteThis @aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:

>>>> Unlike the other things he
>>>> saved, THE GOLD RUSH
>>>> was commercially viable still.
>>>> I think Chaplin simply
>>>> was concerned about
>>>> potential piracy with a viable
>>>> original negative around.

>>> You're probably right.

>>>> I once asked Danny Selznick about
>>>> the cuts made in GONE WITH
>>>> THE WIND by his father after
>>>> the previews of the film. I believe it
>>>> was shortened by a half hour. Stills
>>>> do exist of the deleted scenes (such
>>>> as Belle Watling nursing wounded
>>>> soldiers)

>>>> I asked him if these out-takes might
>>>> still exist somewhere. He laughed
>>>> and said his father would have
>>>> destroyed them because of DOS's
>>>> fear that they might fall into
>>>> the hands of film pirates who
>>>> could exploit the popularity
>>>> of GWTW by making a black
>>>> market in the snips.

>>>> I think CC's rationale might have
>>>> been the same.

>>> You're probably right.

>>>> I deplore his decision, nonetheless,
>>>>as I do Lady Chaplin's destruction
>>>> of the saved print of SEA GULLS.

>>> I agree completely.

>> Ooops! Glory be! Was
>> that three---count 'em--three
>> statements of agreement?

> You can make very good sense
> when you talk about films.

Yes he can.

It's a shame he doesn't do it more often.

(Talk about films, that is.)


Tom Moran

"The people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders...All you have to do is to tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger."

Hermann Goering
 >> Stay informed about: Some New Stuff on _The Gold Rush_ 
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
Related Topics:
New York Times review of CC DVDs - -------------------------------------------------- Charlie Chaplin, All Dressed Up By PETER M. NICHOLS -------------------------------------------------- MOVIE DETAILS The Gold Rush Modern Times The Great Dictator Limelight In the beginning (of..

Charlie's Angles - Charlie's angles By Glenn Whipp Film Writer Geraldine Chaplin felt like she knew her father pretty well until she watched a new documentary about his life, "Charlie: The Life and Times of Charlie Chaplin,' which premiered at the Cannes Film Fest...

Reviews and the new DVDs - I suspect none of these reviewers actually knows anything about Chaplin (or cares), but are simply re-writing the press releases that came with their free copies of the new DVDs. How else to explain really ignorant statements like the one Bruce Calvert...

Next Set of Warner Releases? - Originally, there was talk of the second wave of Chaplin Collection coming this fall. Now, as all of the hype is kicking in, I keep reading about the next set being released next year. Anybody know the actual schedule? Scanz

Modern Times - Disc 2 out of sync - There's a major audio sync problem with Disc 2 of Warner Bros.' new Modern Times DVD. Virtually the entire disc is slightly out of sync. The problem is most noticable during "Smile" by Liberace and during the trailers for CC's later talkies. I...
   Movie Forums (Home) -> Charlie Chaplin All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Goto page 1, 2
Page 1 of 2

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You can edit your posts in this forum
You can delete your posts in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum



[ Contact us | Terms of Service/Privacy Policy ]