Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder

If you are shooting @ 25 fps and doing your video transfer at the same
rate then your DAT audio will sync up properly in the AVID or etc once
you record it in. If however you are shooting at 24 fps (as in USA)
you will need to do a"pull-down" of your DAT's sample rate from 48 k
to 47.952, the standard 24 fps pull down, in order to match the sound
to the image. For this you'll have to rent a "studio" type DAT
machine like a Sony 7050 and record the audio into the Avid at the
"pulldown" rate. The Sony (etc) studio DATs can be set to use the
"ABS" time recorded on your D8 as SMPTE, so that the editors can
search your DATs for the circled takes with the studio DAT under the
control of the Avid. Be sure and take good notes about the take start
times and turn them in with the DATs. Unless your DAT is way out of
adjustment (it happens) the sync should hold just fine.

good luck

Philip Perkins
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

If you still wont tc facility, you can run smart slate and transmit the tc
to your mixer ( I assume that you have one ) by cable or radio.
you just open the tc channel and running 10 sec of preroll with tc and after
the clap changing the input from tc to other mixer input ,that way you have
tc on start of each take,the avid can read the tc from audio track or you
can dub the cassettes with completely tc in the studio .I don't remember if
tcd-8 have or have not copy protector for digital dubbing.
If I correct that method was used with non tc dats and Nagras but in
automatic way (Ambient?),maybe someone remember it better than me Cines I
never did it with the dat or Nagra.Something similar I did to synchronize
multy mini dv camera shots.
Its not so comfortable but it keeps you with 2 track recording.
OlegKaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

"KLJ" <jacksk58.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e84a5431.0309102121.19fd6988@posting.google.com...
> Because of budgetary reasons, my production (Super 16mm Short) will
> require our production sound to be recorded on a conventional DAT
> recorder. It's a Sony TCD-8 field DAT recorder which doesn't have TC.
> We will be using a regular Slate (the non Timecode type) to slate for
> picture and sound for sync'ing. What would be the process(es)(or
> practice) for ensuring proper sync in Post (at the Avid or FCP
> Station) as the production audio goes from Production to Post.
>
> Any help or responses would be appreciated.
>
> thanks
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

"Oleg Kaizerman" <kaizero.TakeThisOut@netvision.net.il> wrote in message news:<bjqe51$lq5pj$1@ID-184704.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> If you still wont tc facility, you can run smart slate and transmit the tc
> to your mixer ( I assume that you have one ) by cable or radio.
> you just open the tc channel and running 10 sec of preroll with tc and after
> the clap changing the input from tc to other mixer input ,that way you have
> tc on start of each take,the avid can read the tc from audio track or you
> can dub the cassettes with completely tc in the studio .I don't remember if
> tcd-8 have or have not copy protector for digital dubbing.
> If I correct that method was used with non tc dats and Nagras but in
> automatic way (Ambient?),maybe someone remember it better than me Cines I
> never did it with the dat or Nagra.Something similar I did to synchronize
> multy mini dv camera shots.
> Its not so comfortable but it keeps you with 2 track recording.
> OlegKaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
>

This is a great idea that I've used for backup machines. On a
long-rolling take, I'd roll the non-TC DAT, give it a burst of code
from the Denecke box on my slate (jammed to the TCDAT main recorder),
then without stopping tape disconnected the TC and plugged the audio
back in. If they wanted to use this tape for syncing, they could
connect the digital audio out of a play deck to the digital audio in
of a studio TCDAT, and also take the analog out to the TCDATs TC
input. Put the TCDAT recorder in continuous rejam mode, so that it
will re-jam when it sees new/different TC numbers coming to it, and
then it will keep counting from there when the TC goes away. This new
tape will be a TC clone of the original DAT with the same TC shown on
the slate and completely syncable in telecine or Avid.

Philip Perkins
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

> This is a great idea that I've used for backup machines. On a
> long-rolling take, I'd roll the non-TC DAT, give it a burst of code
> from the Denecke box on my slate (jammed to the TCDAT main recorder),
> then without stopping tape disconnected the TC and plugged the audio
> back in. If they wanted to use this tape for syncing, they could
> connect the digital audio out of a play deck to the digital audio in
> of a studio TCDAT, and also take the analog out to the TCDATs TC
> input. Put the TCDAT recorder in continuous rejam mode, so that it
> will re-jam when it sees new/different TC numbers coming to it, and
> then it will keep counting from there when the TC goes away. This new
> tape will be a TC clone of the original DAT with the same TC shown on
> the slate and completely syncable in telecine or Avid.
>
> Philip Perkins


I have just done a shoot using non-tc DAT and PD150 DVcam using a
normal slate
etc. I then inputed all the audio into my laptop via Digigram sound
card
and SPDIF and made each take into a seperate wav file. These were then
given to the editor who was editing using Final Cut. He had already
firewired the DV
in and then took my CD's and sunk up each take which he said was very
easy and
quick as he could see where each clap was on the waveform and then
lined this up with the relevant frame.
The one thing I have noticed though using this method, is that when
transfering
the audio into the computer using the SPDIF the sync goes out quicker
than when
I come out analog-out of the DAT into the Digigram analog-in's. When I
look at both the waveforms on a multitrack program (same bit of audio)
one is shorter than the other! Can anyone tell me what is happening !

Cheers (first posting!)

Rashad Omar
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

did you recorded it and played back from the same machine ?,what was the bit
rate did you record ,?
the player that was used for fiddling,did you synchronize it in some way
(world clock or burst)?

> I come out analog-out of the DAT into the Digigram analog-in's. When I
> look at both the waveforms on a multitrack program (same bit of audio)
> one is shorter than the other! Can anyone tell me what is happening !
>
> Cheers (first posting!)
>

congratulations Rashad
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

> Rashad Omar
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

"Oleg Kaizerman" <kaizero DeleteThis @netvision.net.il> wrote in message news:<

> If you still wont tc facility, you can run smart slate and transmit the tc
> to your mixer ( I assume that you have one ) by cable or radio.
> you just open the tc channel and running 10 sec of preroll with tc and after
> the clap changing the input from tc to other mixer input ,that way you have
> tc on start of each take,the avid can read the tc from audio track or you
> can dub the cassettes with completely tc in the studio .

You can do this, but I'd suggest that you be very careful with the
Sony D8s not to run the TC concurrently throughout the take on another
channel, especially at a high audio level. These DAT machines suffer
from channel crosstalk sometimes and the TC noise can end up bleeding
all over your audio on the other track. Putting it up during preroll
and slate is fine, as Oleg recommends, but I'd recommend getting it
out of there before the director calls "action".

Another consideration when using non-TC DATs is that the machines are
susceptible to sync drifts over long periods of consecutive roll time
(eg five to ten minute takes, etc) and when the machines are
physically jostled (being used over the shoulder, etc). Most of these
drifts are minor and can be fixed -- just be aware that someone may
well have to go through and fix them (trimming dead frames between
lines, etc).

Good luck.

Regards,

Noah Timan

(working email is noahtimanatearthlinkdotttnet)
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

"Oleg Kaizerman" <kaizero.RemoveThis@netvision.net.il> wrote in message news:<bjujrj$n9gok$1@ID-184704.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> did you recorded it and played back from the same machine ?,what was the bit
> rate did you record ,?

I recorded at 48khz 16bit and played back from the same machine, Aiwa HHB1 PRO!
very old I know but serviced every year (I do use TC machines but these
DV shoots just don't have the money,am waiting for Sound Devices 744T!)

the player that was used for fiddling,did you synchronize it in some way
> (world clock or burst)?

I just put it straight into the SPDIF in and set the Digigram clock to read
from the digital input as there is no word clock out from the Aiwa
Why would the analog version of the take hold sync better?

Cheers

Rashad Omar
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

"Rashad Omar" <rashsound.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:770c0a22.0309141502.480b13d3@posting.google.com...
> "Oleg Kaizerman" <kaizero.RemoveThis@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
news:<bjujrj$n9gok$1@ID-184704.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > did you recorded it and played back from the same machine ?,what was the
bit
> > rate did you record ,?
>
> I recorded at 48khz 16bit and played back from the same machine, Aiwa HHB1
PRO!
> very old I know but serviced every year (I do use TC machines but these

did it happen only this time or it happened before with other devices also
(tc dat, cd player?)

> DV shoots just don't have the money,

here they are going straight to dv,even not for non tc dat,be happy:-)_

am waiting for Sound Devices 744T!)
>
> the player that was used for fiddling,did you synchronize it in some way
> > (world clock or burst)?
>
> I just put it straight into the SPDIF in and set the Digigram clock to
read
> from the digital input as there is no word clock out from the Aiwa
> Why would the analog version of the take hold sync better?
>

Don't have a clue ,can you digitize it in parallel mode ?
,Its looks that the sampling fq rate from the hhb is not correct ,the
analog do digitize for full 48 kh and the digital output pulling out
information that the computer is not happy with.
,The digital files are they longer or shorter than the analog one?

Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

> Cheers
>
> Rashad Omar
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder 

this_isnot_it DeleteThis @yahoo.com (Noah Timan) wrote in message news:<cd345c55.0309140259.36eec962 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
> "Oleg Kaizerman" <kaizero DeleteThis @netvision.net.il> wrote in message news:<
>
> > If you still wont tc facility, you can run smart slate and transmit the tc
> > to your mixer ( I assume that you have one ) by cable or radio.
> > you just open the tc channel and running 10 sec of preroll with tc and after
> > the clap changing the input from tc to other mixer input ,that way you have
> > tc on start of each take,the avid can read the tc from audio track or you
> > can dub the cassettes with completely tc in the studio .
>
> You can do this, but I'd suggest that you be very careful with the
> Sony D8s not to run the TC concurrently throughout the take on another
> channel, especially at a high audio level. These DAT machines suffer
> from channel crosstalk sometimes and the TC noise can end up bleeding
> all over your audio on the other track. Putting it up during preroll
> and slate is fine, as Oleg recommends, but I'd recommend getting it
> out of there before the director calls "action".
>
> Another consideration when using non-TC DATs is that the machines are
> susceptible to sync drifts over long periods of consecutive roll time
> (eg five to ten minute takes, etc) and when the machines are
> physically jostled (being used over the shoulder, etc). Most of these
> drifts are minor and can be fixed -- just be aware that someone may
> well have to go through and fix them (trimming dead frames between
> lines, etc).
>
> Good luck.
>
> Regards,
>
> Noah Timan
>
> (working email is noahtimanatearthlinkdotttnet)

Thanks again guys for all your input and suggestions, I will remember
them for the future. As it turns out now, we'll be able to get a TC
DAT recorder and smart slate for my production after all. Which should
make life simpler for everybody involved.

Once again, thanks

KLJ
 >> Stay informed about: Sync Sound and Non TC DAT Recorder