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a Chaplin convert?

 
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Ulrich Ruedel

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Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:13 pm
Post subject: a Chaplin convert?
Archived from groups: alt>movies>chaplin (more info?)

The other day, I got a message from my friend David Kalat (author of some
well worth reading works on Mabuse, Fantomas and Godzilla, and some terrific
Mabuse DVD audio commentaries too), where he refers back to a conversation
we had about the current "rediscovery" of Chaplin, and how those changing
popular attitudes (this must be like the third Chaplin "rediscovery" in my
lifetime, and I'm not that old!) are more a sign of their times. I thought
it was interesting reading and David has some very good points to make, so
with his OK (and as an attempt to focus this group back to Chaplin!!), I'll
post it below. It also makes an interesting follow-up to David Robinson's
take on Chaplin's popurarity -- or lack thereof -- in the UK, and IMO the
Chaplin "attitude" David describes also mirrors a popular "contempt" for
Disney among many film buffs I know. Anyways --

"I've also been watching some Chaplin, to re-assess my attitude towards
him. I watched the Gold Rush (silent version), and the stuff on the
Slapstick Encyclopedia (The Rink, Night at the English Music Hall).
I've been thinking about it all, and I think what happened was that I
formed my opinion of Chaplin when I was a young teenager, when a
retrospective of his works and some documentaries about his filmmaking
were shown on public television around 1984 or so. My attitudes were
pretty unsophisticated back then, and I bought into some of the "if
it's popular it can't be good, if it's good it can't be popular" kind
of thinking that I now reject. As a staunch Buster Keaton fan, at a
time when Keaton was not as well known or celebrated in pop culture as
he is now (all praise David Shepard) I resented how Chaplin stole all
the attention. Chaplin here in the US is an absolutely ubiquitous
icon, and his image is recognized to a much greater extent than his
films are actually shown or seen. In other words, Chaplin is famous
for being famous, much like Elvis or Marilyn Monroe on Betty Boop for
that matter--Betty Boop cartoons are virtually impossible to see, yet
her image is sold everywhere to fans who have almost no idea what she
is. So I saw Chaplin's fame as a mark of shame--proof that if the
masses accepted him, and did so without even really caring what his
films were, then I was above it all by rejecting him after actually
seeing his films. Now, much older and wiser, I can go back and
recognize the folly in that thinking. I still find his films a little
maudlin, a little tear-jerky, in a way that is not so much to my taste
(the emotional vacuum in Keaton or Harry Langdon appeals to me more)
but I can't say that Gold Rush isn't a masterpiece, deserving of every
word of praise ever said about it." -- David Kalat


Uli

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Ulrich Ruedel

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Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: a Chaplin convert? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Doug Sulpy" <dsulpy.TakeThisOut@optonline.net> wrote

> > ...IMO the
> > Chaplin "attitude" David describes also mirrors a popular "contempt" for
> > Disney among many film buffs I know. Anyways --
>
> I don't see the connection. Please explain.

The connection I see is that both CC and Disney are dismissed by many as
sentimental -- an aspect of their work, incidentally, that one could try
trace back to 19th century European cultural influences (Dickens, Grimm).
While those elements are definitely there, IMHO many people fail to see
there's other aspects beyond them, maybe even balancing them. There's
certainly very dark elements in many Disney feature films (even in fairly
recent blockbusters) that most 'imitators' like Don Bluth don't seem to be
able to understand or aim at. And of course there's nothing sentimental in
many early b/w Mickey Mouse, or pretty much any Donald Duck cartoon.
A certain jealousy that many non-film buffs would equate animation with
Disney (ignoring Jones, Avery, Fleischer and other giants and pioneers of
animation) may also be a part, much as (like David K. describes) the image
of Chaplin dominates a popular conception of silent comedy, maybe even
silent film as a whole.

Uli

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Ulrich Ruedel

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Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:38 pm
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"Doug Sulpy" <dsulpy DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote

> Actually, this observation (about Charlie) mirrors something I was
> thinking about last week - are there ANY silent stars who are generally
> recognizable anymore - BESIDES Charlie? ... I think not!

I can only speak of Germany, but I believe due to healthy TV exposure in the
60s-80s, people of my generation (mid-30s) or older would still readily
recognize not only CC, but also Laurel and Hardy (likely calling them Stan &
Laurel or the like though), probably also "that guy with the glasses" = "the
guy on the clock," Pat & Patachon (still a popular metaphor for anything
tall & small), and maybe Buster, too.
As to today's teenagers, I don't know...

Uli
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Phil P.

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Since: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 71



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:46 pm
Post subject: Re: a Chaplin convert? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Betty Boop cartoons are posted regularly on alt.binaries.multimedia.vintage-film

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:13:10 +0200, "Ulrich Ruedel" <uruedel.DeleteThis@t-online.de> wrote:

>The other day, I got a message from my friend David Kalat (author of some
>well worth reading works on Mabuse, Fantomas and Godzilla, and some terrific
>Mabuse DVD audio commentaries too), where he refers back to a conversation
>we had about the current "rediscovery" of Chaplin, and how those changing
>popular attitudes (this must be like the third Chaplin "rediscovery" in my
>lifetime, and I'm not that old!) are more a sign of their times. I thought
>it was interesting reading and David has some very good points to make, so
>with his OK (and as an attempt to focus this group back to Chaplin!!), I'll
>post it below. It also makes an interesting follow-up to David Robinson's
>take on Chaplin's popurarity -- or lack thereof -- in the UK, and IMO the
>Chaplin "attitude" David describes also mirrors a popular "contempt" for
>Disney among many film buffs I know. Anyways --
>
>"I've also been watching some Chaplin, to re-assess my attitude towards
>him. I watched the Gold Rush (silent version), and the stuff on the
>Slapstick Encyclopedia (The Rink, Night at the English Music Hall).
>I've been thinking about it all, and I think what happened was that I
>formed my opinion of Chaplin when I was a young teenager, when a
>retrospective of his works and some documentaries about his filmmaking
>were shown on public television around 1984 or so. My attitudes were
>pretty unsophisticated back then, and I bought into some of the "if
>it's popular it can't be good, if it's good it can't be popular" kind
>of thinking that I now reject. As a staunch Buster Keaton fan, at a
>time when Keaton was not as well known or celebrated in pop culture as
>he is now (all praise David Shepard) I resented how Chaplin stole all
>the attention. Chaplin here in the US is an absolutely ubiquitous
>icon, and his image is recognized to a much greater extent than his
>films are actually shown or seen. In other words, Chaplin is famous
>for being famous, much like Elvis or Marilyn Monroe on Betty Boop for
>that matter--Betty Boop cartoons are virtually impossible to see, yet
>her image is sold everywhere to fans who have almost no idea what she
>is. So I saw Chaplin's fame as a mark of shame--proof that if the
>masses accepted him, and did so without even really caring what his
>films were, then I was above it all by rejecting him after actually
>seeing his films. Now, much older and wiser, I can go back and
>recognize the folly in that thinking. I still find his films a little
>maudlin, a little tear-jerky, in a way that is not so much to my taste
>(the emotional vacuum in Keaton or Harry Langdon appeals to me more)
>but I can't say that Gold Rush isn't a masterpiece, deserving of every
>word of praise ever said about it." -- David Kalat
>
>
>Uli
>
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Shush

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Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 21



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:32 pm
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Doug Sulpy wrote...

> Ulrich Ruedel wrote...
> > ...IMO the
> > Chaplin "attitude" David describes also mirrors a popular "contempt" for
> > Disney among many film buffs I know. Anyways --
>
> Surely, in the eyes of film
> buffs, Disney deserves every bit of scorn that's been heaped upon it.


What's wrong with Disney? During the Golden Age of American cinema,
he was as successful, ambitious and innovative a producer as anyone.
He produced some of the greatest films of the era, and some of the
most beautiful.

Or are you talking about the studio's modern work, or about the
company's corporate face?



--Shush--
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Shush

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Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 21



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:12 am
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Ulrich Ruedel wrote...

> "I still find his films a little
> maudlin, a little tear-jerky, in a way that is not so much to my taste
> (the emotional vacuum in Keaton or Harry Langdon appeals to me more)
> but I can't say that Gold Rush isn't a masterpiece, deserving of every
> word of praise ever said about it." -- David Kalat


I think that the praise heaped upon Chaplin from the 1920s onward
spoiled him a little.

The Tramp, who was once an irresistible, mischievous figure of fun,
began morphing into a semi-tragic character.

I don't mind the sentimentality in Chaplin's films, but a lot of
romantic angst hangs heavily over "The Gold Rush," "The Circus" and
"City Lights," in my opinion. That's why the First Nationals are the
Chaplins I enjoy the most: by and large, you get the spontaneity and
slapstick of the Mutuals, along with the craftsmanship that
distinguishes the later features.



--Shush--
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James Neibaur

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 988



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:46 am
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in article 230820031236236632%dsulpy@optonline.net, doug at
dsulpy.RemoveThis@optonline.net wrote on 8/23/03 11:36 AM:

> I was referring to Disney's blatantly promoting their leftest agenda -
> in both examples. No offense intended.

Censorship is never a leftest agenda. Liberalism is all about creative
freedom. If people are engaging in censorship, sorry, but they are not
liberals.

I certainly wish Song of the South was readily available for a variety of
reasons. It is one of the more important Disney-produced films. But then I
don't have a problem with Mapplethorpe's artwork or Last Temptation of
Christ being readily available either.

JN
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RFCSAC627N

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 175



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:23 pm
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>From: Shushfilm.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (Shush)

>I don't mind the sentimentality in Chaplin's films, but a lot of
>romantic angst hangs heavily over "The Gold Rush," "The Circus" and
>"City Lights," in my opinion. That's why the First Nationals are the
>Chaplins I enjoy the most: by and large, you get the spontaneity and
>slapstick of the Mutuals, along with the craftsmanship that
>distinguishes the later features.
>
Craftsmanship in a Chaplin film? Better not let George hear you say that.
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Feuillade

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Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 221



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:18 pm
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James Neibaur jneibaur.DeleteThis@wi.rr.com writes:

<snip>

> Liberalism is all about creative
> freedom.

I hate to sound like a pedant, James, but creative freedom is not *all* that
liberalism is about.

It's only a part. A crucial part, but a part.

And so-called "liberals" have acted as censors before. Witness the NAACP
trying to ban "The Birth of a Nation."


Tom Moran

"The people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders...All you have to do is to tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger."

Hermann Goering
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James Neibaur

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 988



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:23 pm
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in article 20030823131801.06962.00003299.RemoveThis@mb-m06.aol.com, Feuillade at
feuillade.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote on 8/23/03 12:18 PM:

> I hate to sound like a pedant, James, but creative freedom is not *all* that
> liberalism is about.
> It's only a part. A crucial part, but a part.

True

> And so-called "liberals" have acted as censors before. Witness the NAACP
> trying to ban "The Birth of a Nation."

I wouldn't classify them as acting as liberals in this situations, however.
The liberal perspective would, I think, understand Birth's significance as a
film despite its racist content.

JN
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James Neibaur

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 988



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:28 pm
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in article 230820031333342859%dsulpy@optonline.net, doug at
dsulpy RemoveThis @optonline.net wrote on 8/23/03 12:33 PM:

> Huh? It's not the right that's behind political correctness - which is
> the reason "Song Of The South" was censored.

I didn't say it was the right.

Censorship for any reason, including political correctness or religious
reasoning, is wrong.

I hate rap but I am also against censoring it. Censorship is wrong, unless
it is one's own self-censorship (e.g. I don't choose to listen to rap).

I don't believe in censoring Song of the South, The Ten Commandments, or
Piss Christ.

> But we're off topic again. If we keep talking politics, George might
> chime in and give you all some kind of fit. :-)

Nope, George is friendly to me.

JN
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Mr. Moose

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Posts: 40



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:58 pm
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:36:23 -0400, doug <dsulpy RemoveThis @optonline.net> wrote:

>I was referring to Disney's blatantly promoting their leftest agenda -
>in both examples. No offense intended.

I don't know if it's a leftist agenda as much as a
profit-making-at-all-artistic-costs agenda. One of the creepiest
things to watch is the Dinsey company history on the Snow White dvd -
the company is just merrily rolling along through the decades,
producing works, and all of the sudden, in the 80's and 90's, they buy
up TONS of things - athletic teams, land, ocean liners, on and on, a
litany of purchases and acquisitions. I have a hard time equating
rampant expansionism with a leftist agenda!!

In fact, I don't see the censorship of Disney works as leftist at all.
I see it as spineless caving to special interests, rather than
actually dealing with the facts of how the world used to be. The world
isn't what it was 60 years ago, mostly for the better, really. I would
think that Song of the South should be issued with a simple and clear
documentary of what the expectations of film were at the time, what
the film-going society was like, and how things have changed. No
apologies necessary for the work of a crew of people (most of whom are
now dead) trying to and succeeding in making a profitable film.

Ah well, I guess I'l have to content myself with the platinum edition
of "A Goofy Movie", or whatever else they are releasing next.

Mark
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