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countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring

 
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Larry Fisher

External


Since: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 98



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:11 pm
Post subject: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring
Archived from groups: rec>arts>movies>production>sound (more info?)

To the Group:
To make the measurements on the B6 we used the same setup as in the
previous post, "Lectrosonics MM400a and COS11 red dot wiring". We had
available two B6 microphones and I assume (that word again) they are
the standard 6 mV/Pa units since the overload point that we found was
close to the specified values. One unit was one that Carl at
Countryman kindly loaned us several years ago and the other was from a
customer who was having difficulties matching to 400 series
transmitters. We found several factors that could cause possible
problems with the B6 and a UM400a. The bias resistor for the UM400
series is 4k. This is higher than what we have used on the UM200 by a
factor of 4. We chose the higher value because of the improved noise
performance of the 400 series. In an effort to increase input signal
levels to get past self noise, we increased the bias resistor value
between our pins 3 and 4 to 4k. We had also run into problems getting
enough output out of some big name low current microphones that wanted
to look into a 20k (!) load.

The B6 microphones that we measured here were pulling 750uA and 950uA
at 3 Volts which is 2 to 3 times higher than the B6 spec sheet. At
first I thought this might be the problem since this much current
would pull the operating point well below 3 Volts.

I called Carl at Countryman and learned more about B6's than the
average person should know.

What Carl said specific to the B6 is that the ideal voltage at the B6
mic terminals is 1.5 Volts at which point the mic will draw 500uA.
This was a lower voltage than I expected and changes what we would
recommend for biasing. The 500 uA does differ some from the Countryman
web site values but products always change the most right after the
moment you publish "firm" specs.

Countryman's original recommended UM400 wiring inside the TA5F, from
their website was:
pin 1 shield
pin 4 white (center conductor)
pins 2 and 3 install a 2.8k resistor between them.
This will give slightly more than a 3 dB reduction in signal, compared
to our Lectro wiring recommendation.

Carl now prefers another configuration, which is to ignore our
internal resistors entirely and wire a 1.5 k resistor from pin 2 to
pin 3 and and a 3.3 k resistor from pin 3 to the the hot lead of the
B6. The reason for the new recommendation is to reduce the high B6's
sensitivity and get it closer to other commonly used mics.With our
bias impedance and the resistors this will drop the signal 6 dB total
below our original Lectro wring and bias the mic at 2.1 Volts. So the
wiring is:
pin 1 shield
pins 2 and 3 install a 1.5k resistor between them.
pin 3 3.3k resistor in series with the mic's white lead (center
conductor)
i.e., a 3.3k resistor between pin 3 and the mic's hot lead (white).

Another wiring, for more attenuation, will change our 5 Volt bias to
1.7 Volts on the B6 and drop the level 14 dB below our original wiring
is as follows:
pin 1 shield
pin 3 white (center conductor)
pins 2 and 3 install a 1.5k resistor between them.
pins 1 and 2 install a 1.8k resistor between them.

So here are three wirings which will drop input levels 3, 6 and 14 dB
below the Lectro recommended wiring. I agree with Carl that the 6 dB
wiring is the best all around. However, there is a bit more to the
dynamics of the situation than just limiting and clipping levels. The
3 dB wiring will let the B6 drive the UM400 into 10 db of limiting
(compression not distortion), even with the gain at a minimum. The 6
dB wiring will be 7 dB into limiting. The 14 dB wiring will not drive
the transmitter into limiting before the mic itself clips. The
downside is that input noise levels will come up by the same amounts
which might be a problem in very quiet environments.

The standard B6 is spec'd at a maximum input sound level of 118 dB.
We measured gentle clipping at 114 dB on the high current mic and 117
dB on the lower current mic. These measurements are probably not as
precise as Countryman's since they were made at higher voltage and
current levels (more gain) but still are certainly comparable to
Countryman's spec sheet. Considering that these are higher current
mics than other electrets and at clipping, the mic is swinging the
entire 500 uA bias supply, the std B6's are hot mics indeed. The
gain reduction wiring above does nothing as far as increasing the
sound level limit of the microphone itself to more than 118 dB spl.
Therefore, the lower gain B6 (-10dB) version may be a good spare mic
choice, certainly for loud situations since it would handle 128 dB
Spl.

The long and short of it is that Carl wishes wireless mic
manufacturers would standardize the input circuits and if not that,
then at least not change the inputs willy-nilly. I agree with Carl and
certainly we are guilty of changing the input values when we went from
the 200 series to the 400 series. I would add that it would be great
for the wireless manufacturers, if the all various mics had similar
output levels and similar bias currents. What makes it tough, is that
the bias currents between manufacturers vary by 15 to 1, the output
levels by 25 dB or more and recommended loads from 1k to 20k.

Carl made a very interesting proposal which was to just provide a bias
voltage (say 5 Volts or 3 Volts), a DC blocked audio input and a
ground and let the mic manufacturers recommend the resistor values for
the drain and/or source loads and build them into the mic connector.
As Carl pointed out there is lots of room inside a Switchcraft TA5F
connector.

Best Regards,
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics

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Fernando

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Since: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 140



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Thank you very much to both of you for all this enlightening, and to
Lectrosonics and Countryman for being so close to real life.

Larry, the UM400"a" is a new hardware or software version? It is yet
available?


Fernando


f
*

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Fernando

External


Since: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 140



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

For the archives: UM400a was a typo error.
To this date, only UM400 exists!


> Larry, the UM400"a" is a new hardware or software version? It is yet
> available?
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nico

External


Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hello to those following this B6 thread...

In a recent stage show I had some problems using Countryman E6's with
the UM400 series lectro transmitter. With atten at zero there is
still some overdriving on the loudest vocals. Luckily not too
objectionable - with the mic positioned as far out of the path of
SPL as poss. But definatly not acceptable to continue like this!
What up Countryman?! -these E6's were purchased as the TA5F lectro
type. I figured compatability was a forgone thing.
My first assumption was capsule overdrive... but the specs for the
mics look far too good for this... and after reading this thread
about bias compatibility etc etc... well I hav to suspect the need for
diods or resistance trickery. Any one else had this issue? Does
anyone kno if the E6 capsule is more-or-less the same as the B6 in
terms of its power performance and wiring needs? It'd be great if the
info thus far presented in this thread was applicable.

PS. all hail the Lectro 4oo's. What a transmitter.

n
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Larry Fisher

External


Since: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 98



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:47 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 10 Mar 2004 02:08:35 -0800, n.mcgowan.RemoveThis@xtra.co.nz (nico) wrote:

>Hello to those following this B6 thread...
>
>In a recent stage show I had some problems using Countryman E6's with
>the UM400 series lectro transmitter. With atten at zero there is
>still some overdriving on the loudest vocals. Luckily not too
>objectionable - with the mic positioned as far out of the path of
>SPL as poss. But definatly not acceptable to continue like this!
>What up Countryman?! -these E6's were purchased as the TA5F lectro
>type. I figured compatability was a forgone thing.
> My first assumption was capsule overdrive... but the specs for the
>mics look far too good for this... and after reading this thread
>about bias compatibility etc etc... well I hav to suspect the need for
>diods or resistance trickery. Any one else had this issue? Does
>anyone kno if the E6 capsule is more-or-less the same as the B6 in
>terms of its power performance and wiring needs? It'd be great if the
>info thus far presented in this thread was applicable.
>
>PS. all hail the Lectro 4oo's. What a transmitter.
>
>n
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Larry Fisher

External


Since: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 98



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:56 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi Nico,
I'm up to my ears in software meetings for the next two days so I'm
not going to be able to get ahold of Carl at Countryman but looking at
the spec sheets it seems the E6 is a lower sensitivity B6 so all the
resistor combinations proposed for the B6 gain reduction should work
just fine for the E6. Here's part of the B6 posting for the UM400:

{{Countryman's original recommended UM400 wiring inside the TA5F, from
their website was:
pin 1 shield
pin 4 white (center conductor)
pins 2 and 3 install a 2.8k resistor between them.
This will give slightly more than a 3 dB reduction in signal, compared
to our Lectro wiring recommendation.

Carl now prefers another configuration, which is to ignore our
internal resistors entirely and wire a 1.5 k resistor from pin 2 to
pin 3 and and a 3.3 k resistor from pin 3 to the the hot lead of the
B6. The reason for the new recommendation is to reduce the high B6's
sensitivity and get it closer to other commonly used mics.With our
bias impedance and the resistors this will drop the signal 6 dB total
below our original Lectro wring and bias the mic at 2.1 Volts. So the
wiring is:
pin 1 shield
pins 2 and 3 install a 1.5k resistor between them.
pin 3 3.3k resistor in series with the mic's white lead (center
conductor)
i.e., a 3.3k resistor between pin 3 and the mic's hot lead (white).

Another wiring, for more attenuation, will change our 5 Volt bias to
1.7 Volts on the B6 and drop the level 14 dB below our original wiring
is as follows:
pin 1 shield
pin 3 white (center conductor)
pins 2 and 3 install a 1.5k resistor between them.
pins 1 and 2 install a 1.8k resistor between them.

So here are three wirings which will drop input levels 3, 6 and 14 dB
below the Lectro recommended wiring. I agree with Carl that the 6 dB
wiring is the best all around. However, there is a bit more to the
dynamics of the situation than just limiting and clipping levels. The
3 dB wiring will let the B6 drive the UM400 into 10 db of limiting
(compression not distortion), even with the gain at a minimum. The 6
dB wiring will be 7 dB into limiting. The 14 dB wiring will not drive
the transmitter into limiting before the mic itself clips. The
downside is that input noise levels will come up by the same amounts
which might be a problem in very quiet environments.}}

I will work up a 10 dB attenuation scheme after I get out of the
software training class and try it out with a E6 that Carl loaned us.

Best Regards
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics

On 10 Mar 2004 02:08:35 -0800, n.mcgowan.TakeThisOut@xtra.co.nz (nico) wrote:

>Hello to those following this B6 thread...
>
>In a recent stage show I had some problems using Countryman E6's with
>the UM400 series lectro transmitter. With atten at zero there is
>still some overdriving on the loudest vocals. Luckily not too
>objectionable - with the mic positioned as far out of the path of
>SPL as poss. But definatly not acceptable to continue like this!
>What up Countryman?! -these E6's were purchased as the TA5F lectro
>type. I figured compatability was a forgone thing.
> My first assumption was capsule overdrive... but the specs for the
>mics look far too good for this... and after reading this thread
>about bias compatibility etc etc... well I hav to suspect the need for
>diods or resistance trickery. Any one else had this issue? Does
>anyone kno if the E6 capsule is more-or-less the same as the B6 in
>terms of its power performance and wiring needs? It'd be great if the
>info thus far presented in this thread was applicable.
>
>PS. all hail the Lectro 4oo's. What a transmitter.
>
>n
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Larry Fisher

External


Since: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 98



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 10 Mar 2004 02:08:35 -0800, n.mcgowan RemoveThis @xtra.co.nz (nico) wrote:

>Hello to those following this B6 thread...
>
>In a recent stage show I had some problems using Countryman E6's with
>the UM400 series lectro transmitter. With atten at zero there is
>still some overdriving on the loudest vocals. Luckily not too
>objectionable - with the mic positioned as far out of the path of
>SPL as poss. But definatly not acceptable to continue like this!
>What up Countryman?! -these E6's were purchased as the TA5F lectro
>type. I figured compatability was a forgone thing.
> My first assumption was capsule overdrive... but the specs for the
>mics look far too good for this... and after reading this thread
>about bias compatibility etc etc... well I hav to suspect the need for
>diods or resistance trickery. Any one else had this issue? Does
>anyone kno if the E6 capsule is more-or-less the same as the B6 in
>terms of its power performance and wiring needs? It'd be great if the
>info thus far presented in this thread was applicable.
>
>PS. all hail the Lectro 4oo's. What a transmitter.
>
>n
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Larry Fisher

External


Since: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 98



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:22 am
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Sorry for the extra posts; I just found out what the far right button
on the mouse does inside the Free Agent news reader.
Larry F
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Jay Rose CAS

External


Since: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 328



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

The E6 and E6 directional come in three different sensitivities, tuned for
different styles of presentation and monitoring environments. When I spoke
to Carl about his a few months ago, he said most people order too
sensitive a mic...

--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com
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nico

External


Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

SEE-SIGFILE.TakeThisOut@rcn.com (Jay Rose CAS) wrote in message news:<SEE-SIGFILE-1003041520150001.TakeThisOut@192.168.1.100>...
> The E6 and E6 directional come in three different sensitivities, tuned for
> different styles of presentation and monitoring environments. When I spoke
> to Carl about his a few months ago, he said most people order too
> sensitive a mic...

Thanks for the responces u wonderful people

Is carl the tech guru at Countryman? Any one hav his email adrss?
cheers
n.
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Eric Toline

External


Since: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 1094



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12 pm
Post subject: Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Re: countryman B6 mic and UM400a wiring

Group: rec.arts.movies.production.sound Date: Thu, Mar 11, 2004, 7:05pm
(EST-3) From: n.mcgowan RemoveThis @xtra.co.nz (nico)

Thanks for the responces u wonderful people
Is carl the tech guru at Countryman? Any one have his email address?
cheers
n.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well seeing that his name is Carl Countryman, I guess he's the tech
guru. Try: carl RemoveThis @countryman.com

Eric

"RAMPS @ NAB: 4/20/04: Napoleons Bar, Paris Hotel"
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