TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA

On 6/2/06 11:43 PM, in article
1149309836.570513.327190 DeleteThis @c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "Richard Carnahan"
<rfcsac627n DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:

> Has anyone besides me actually heard the score? It is a delight.
>

Yes, I've heard it.

No comment.

DBP
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

A valid point. All too often, it's not about the movie --- it's about the
performer --- and what he, she or they deem to be their unparalleled talent
for "interpreting" those flickering old images in ways nobody had thought of
previously. In the case of TCM's Young Composers, it's a "look what I can
do --- listen to my brilliance!" attitude that leads me to suspect that they
view the whole concept as a mere doorway to bigger and better things, and
would eagerly feign enthusiasm to score a test pattern if offered the cash
and recording studio as the prize. And, indeed, they do move on --- usually
never to be heard from again --- leaving behind a film that languished in
silence or disrepair for decades, then was miraculously rescued from
obscurity, and is now graced with a (usually) horrible, inept or wholly
inappropriate score that will linger on and taint the film for years to
come.

Jeff




> > It boils down to a question of ego too -- is the performance about the
> > movie or about the talent of the drummer?
> >
>
> It's the movie. These films deserve respect from the 'bands' providing
> the scores, not a distraction from what's on the screen. If all you
> want is to go listen to 'the band' go to your local Swinger's A-Go-Go
> night club and leave the silent film scores to the folks who enhance
> the picture and not mock it with junk sounds.
>
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

> >
> > Eric Stott wrote:
> >>

>
> I beg to differ. You're the usual newsgroup sort who hides upder a
> meaningless pseudonym and an address that means nothing, which you believe
> allows you to be a jerk. In my opinion this tends to nullify your opinions.

Just following your lead. You come across as a bigger jerk by name
calling which brings you down to the juvinile mentality of a
jelly-bean. As for your meaningless opinions,
more highly educated ones can be obtained from a barnyard pig pen.
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

> Hm. I thought the Pacific was the left coast. Can I see your map?
>
> Rodney

I wondered if anybody would catch that gaff. I guess that I just like
to think of myself as a leftist (although I am so far left it does seem
right).

I just got Rick Altman's book "Silent Film Sound". It's wonderful!

Slightly off topic, I just heard a NPR Weekend Edition festure on a
"rock band" from England in the mid 19th century. The group played a
massive stone xylophone. It was made entirely of slate taken from a
quarry in the Lake District. The xylophone still exits in a museum in
the same region, and the recording they played was surprisingly gentle
and melodious.

Ken
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Clearly, the precursor to the inevitable "cathedral organ" found in many
caverns turned into tourist traps! As a child on a family outing, I heard
just such a stalactite "organ" being played as part of a cavern tour --- and
the effect, heard in near total darkness, with faint colored lights flashing
here and there, was far more terrifying than melodious and educational.
Wonder if they still include this and the "buried alive" gimmick nowadays.

Jeff


"Ken Winokur" <alloyo.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1149347505.219387.163970@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Slightly off topic, I just heard a NPR Weekend Edition festure on a
> "rock band" from England in the mid 19th century. The group played a
> massive stone xylophone. It was made entirely of slate taken from a
> quarry in the Lake District. The xylophone still exits in a museum in
> the same region, and the recording they played was surprisingly gentle
> and melodious.
>
> Ken
>
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Darren wrote:
> Would the sound of this instrumetn be found on NPRs website in streaming
> audio?
>
> I would like to hear it. :)

I haven't looked it up, but they said that the rock xylophone recording
was on the website. It was Weekend Edition (I think). The program was
fascinating (for a "junk percussionist" at least). They said that in
the mid 19th century there were competing bands all using stone
xylophones. All of them claimed to be the first to discover the
instrument. This one was the first and the most prominent. The music
they played was a contemporary composition.

I had watched Tillie - an older, very attenuated version - and had
thought it was a poor movie. The UCLA restoration, restored by Ross
Lipman, is really great. It is about 90 minutes long. It has often
been said that it is the first feature length comedy film ever made.
An article I read in the catalogue of the Pordenone festival expained
that it is in fact not the first, but it sounds like it was issued
within a few weeks of the first. It is directed (not just produced) by
Mack Sennett.

I found it to be very sophisticated. The editing is quite advanced. I
don't know what other restorations there are. UCLA used many sources
and gathered every possible frame. It's a little jumpy, combining many
very different generations of 16mm and 35mm sources (jumpy only in
contrast and sharpness - they've matched the frames positioning
amazingly). I understand they will try to match contrasts better on
the DVD.

If you haven't seen the UClA version, I suggest that it's worth the
effort to find it when the DVD is out. You can always turn off the
Tillie's Nightmare soundtrack (and listen to some random,
unsyncronized, music). I understand that if you play Darkside of the
Moon at 7/8th speed, while standing on your head, it will sync up
perfectly.
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Would the sound of this instrumetn be found on NPRs website in streaming
audio?

I would like to hear it. :)


Darren

"Ken Winokur" <alloyo RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1149347505.219387.163970@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Hm. I thought the Pacific was the left coast. Can I see your map?
> >
> > Rodney
>
> I wondered if anybody would catch that gaff. I guess that I just like
> to think of myself as a leftist (although I am so far left it does seem
> right).
>
> I just got Rick Altman's book "Silent Film Sound". It's wonderful!
>
> Slightly off topic, I just heard a NPR Weekend Edition festure on a
> "rock band" from England in the mid 19th century. The group played a
> massive stone xylophone. It was made entirely of slate taken from a
> quarry in the Lake District. The xylophone still exits in a museum in
> the same region, and the recording they played was surprisingly gentle
> and melodious.
>
> Ken
>
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Vitaphone wrote:
> A valid point. All too often, it's not about the movie --- it's about the
> performer --- and what he, she or they deem to be their unparalleled talent
> for "interpreting" those flickering old images in ways nobody had thought of
> previously. In the case of TCM's Young Composers, it's a "look what I can
> do --- listen to my brilliance!" attitude that leads me to suspect that they
> view the whole concept as a mere doorway to bigger and better things, and
> would eagerly feign enthusiasm to score a test pattern if offered the cash
> and recording studio as the prize. And, indeed, they do move on --- usually
> never to be heard from again --- leaving behind a film that languished in
> silence or disrepair for decades, then was miraculously rescued from
> obscurity, and is now graced with a (usually) horrible, inept or wholly
> inappropriate score that will linger on and taint the film for years to
> come.

This is precisely what I predicted would be the opinion here. And I
also predicted that general audiences would not necessarily agree. Last
time Mont Alto was at Telluride, we had performed our score to EROTIKON
(the 1929 Gustave Machaty film) to a full house in a smallish theater.
Later I stood in line to check out Alloy's score for BLACKMAIL (in a
much, much larger theater that was also packed). I was in line behind a
conversation between two film-goers (and, at Telluride-pass prices
these are hardly idle film-goers but pretty die-hard film buffs) who
discussed how they only wanted to see silent films with modern,
experimental scores; not with period music. "Old music is just too
academic and tedious, and contains no new artistic impulse."

I'm proud of what I do, but I don't fool myself by thinking that it's
what most audiences want to hear.

And, by the way, what I heard of the Marion Davies' score from TCM's
young composer a couple of years back seemed very competent. With new
film scorers you're going to hit some duds and some good work. I think
it depends entirely on whether the composer sees the job as a bridge to
film-scoring work (in which case they'll try hard to do justice to the
film so producers of films will notice) or as a bridge to work as a
modern composer (in which case they'll re-orchestrate the
string-quartet they wrote two years ago that no one has performed yet,
regardless of whether it fits the film, in case some conservatory
professors will notice).

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Rodney, are there any recordings of your Tango and Ragtime? I only
know your more classical sounding material. I'd like to hear the dance
band.

Ken
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

THE LOST WORLD has Robert Israel and
> Alloy Orchestra scores, and it's hard to decide who is better (the Alloy
> score is a little more traditional than their usual sound)
>
> Stott

I would actually rate the LOST WORLD as medium on Alloy's "traditional
vs. modern" scale. The beginning and end (in London) are classically
based. When they get to the Amazon, we dig into the Latin thing. When
the dinos fight we're pretty well into the modern percussion realm
(that's what I always hear in my head when I see dinosaurs wandering
the streets of Cambridge).

Our most conservative scores are: THE EAGLE, BLACKMAIL AND PHANTOM OF
THE OPERA (all recent). I would also include THE WIND, SYLVESTER (some
of our oldest).

The most unusual are: METROPOLIS, MAN WITH A MOVIE CAMERA, ARBUCKLE
SHORTS (which is downright goofy).

We try to write scores that are in sync with the film (no matter what
the right wing element of AMS thinks). Every time we approach a new
film, we try to direct our musical tastes to the film itself.

The most ususual is probably Chang, which is mostly percussion with a
sampling of one string banjo, and melodies provided by a soprano
recorder and a tenor pennywhistle.

If you've only seen one or two Alloy scores, you can't really judge our
diverse styles.

Ken

PS. Although it's fairly clear that Roberts hasn't heard Tilly, Pearson
actually has ( I sent it to him myself). Who the hell is Vagabond?
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

<rodney.TakeThisOut@mont-alto.com> wrote in message
news:1149525393.847461.307450@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> This is precisely what I predicted would be the opinion here. And I
> also predicted that general audiences would not necessarily agree.

Who do you see in the third race at Belmont a week from next Tuesday? ;)

I was in line behind a
> conversation between two film-goers (and, at Telluride-pass prices
> these are hardly idle film-goers but pretty die-hard film buffs) who
> discussed how they only wanted to see silent films with modern,
> experimental scores; not with period music. "Old music is just too
> academic and tedious, and contains no new artistic impulse."

Wish I was right there. I really, really, do! (Weren't they in the movie
queue scene in "Annie Hall?")
>
> And, by the way, what I heard of the Marion Davies' score from TCM's
> young composer a couple of years back seemed very competent.
> Rodney Sauer
> Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
> www.mont-alto.com
>

There's room enough for everyone, I reckon --- and diversity is certainly
important. However, when a score (be it traditional or experimental)
becomes the >only< score for a newly restored silent film, that's where the
problem starts, I believe. Personally, I felt the Davies score was at
severe odds with the period exuberance in the images and was better suited
to a wistful, barren rural melodrama. If it's all about interpretation,
the DVD format allows for multi audio-tracks, and the exploitation of the
ability to offer multiple scores (to suit the viewer) is something that
simply hasn't been taken intelligent advantage of. "Nosferatu," the Lloyd
boxed set --- I can't think of any others.

Jeff
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"Vitaphone" <vitaphone RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:%TZgg.224341$eR6.63456@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> If it's all about interpretation,
> the DVD format allows for multi audio-tracks, and the exploitation of the
> ability to offer multiple scores (to suit the viewer) is something that
> simply hasn't been taken intelligent advantage of. "Nosferatu," the Lloyd
> boxed set --- I can't think of any others.
>

HINDLE WAKES and CAPTAIN FRACASSE- both have excellend piano scores as
alternatives to avant-garde scores. PHANTOM OF THE OPERA has the 1929
soundtrack vs the Carl Davis score. THE LOST WORLD has Robert Israel and
Alloy Orchestra scores, and it's hard to decide who is better (the Alloy
score is a little more traditional than their usual sound)

Stott
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA 

Eric Stott wrote:
> "Vitaphone" <vitaphone.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:%TZgg.224341$eR6.63456@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > If it's all about interpretation,
> > the DVD format allows for multi audio-tracks, and the exploitation of the
> > ability to offer multiple scores (to suit the viewer) is something that
> > simply hasn't been taken intelligent advantage of. "Nosferatu," the Lloyd
> > boxed set --- I can't think of any others.
> >
>
> HINDLE WAKES and CAPTAIN FRACASSE- both have excellend piano scores as
> alternatives to avant-garde scores. PHANTOM OF THE OPERA has the 1929
> soundtrack vs the Carl Davis score. THE LOST WORLD has Robert Israel and
> Alloy Orchestra scores, and it's hard to decide who is better (the Alloy
> score is a little more traditional than their usual sound)

David Shepard also did alternate scores for THE CAT AND THE CANARY. The
Milestone release of SUDS not only has two alternate soundtracks but
two alternate versions of the entire film (since each soundtrack was
synced to a different surviving print). And let's not forget SUNRISE,
which as I remember has the original Riesenfeld and a modern score by
Timothy Brock. Would that TCM had done the same for SPITE MARRIAGE... I
think that film's reputation could only improve.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com
 >> Stay informed about: TILLIE'S PUNCTURED ROMANCE...Restored, but still MIA