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Since: Jun 29, 2006 Posts: 141
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(Msg. 61) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>movies>chaplin (more info?)
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:47:09 -0400, G-HELPS RemoveThis @webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>
>>.Even if every single film made in the
>>history of film was the same aspect ratio
>>(say, 1.85:1) it would still be considered
>>widescreen, though there might not be a
>>point in using that term.
>
>For you wide screen is a synonym for
>rectangular. for me it's literally more
>picture information available on the
>horizontal plane. The latter is, I
>think, a more meaningful definition
>and COUNTESS doesn't qualify.
That's your definition, which is yours alone and is not shared by
anyone else on the planet that I'm aware of.
However, you're still wrong. Here's why: There IS more information
on the horizontal plane than there would be on a square screen. When
you shoot for widescreen on square film you frame your shot
differently than you would if it was going to be projected square. So
you end up with extra headroom and extra footroom, intending it to be
matted with black bars or cut off by the top and bottom of the theater
screen. This is evident in the fact that the ground glass in cameras
is marked to show the projected framing. So you definitely show more
information on the horizontal plane than you would if you were
intending to project square.
Proof of this is readily available in movies where the TV prints leave
out the matting and don't enlarge the intended framing to fill the
screen. You often see lights and microphones in the shot (or the top
of the tent sets in The Searchers, even though that WAS shot with a
wide frame). This proves that the Director of Photography chose to
frame the shot wide, giving more information on the sides. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 62) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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mlanoue.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com
wrote:
>And I understand that Chaplin essentially
>did the same thing with Countess, but I
>am under the impression that the film
>was projected to fill up a rectangular
>screen, not onto a square screen with a
>black top and bottom. The shots were
>composed for a wider aspect ratio, even
>though he was technically exposing less
>film than before.
Which means the amount of coverage
and horizontal picture information was actually less than in the old
ratio.
This is not the case with true wide screen.
I acknowledge that the term "wide screen" has been used uncritically to
refer to 1.85.
but it is a sloppy use of the term and
a dysfunctional definition---which is
why i challenged it.
I think it should be reserved for anamorphic or wide format processes.
I also think it is particularly meaningless
for COUNTESS, because Chaplin
was a technophobe and probably didnt
even know he was shooting in 1.85
Your post is rational and civil and I
appreciate it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 63) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> If you want to learn the real meaning
> of the term "wide screen, check out
> this site:
>
> American WideScreen Museum - provided as a public service by Martin Hart
>
> Address:http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/
Great idea! From that site I discovered that all of the following are
refered to as "widescreen" formats; 1.66:1 matted, 1.75:1 matted,
1.85:1 matted, as well as the VistaVision optical reduction (which
ended up being the same print image size as the 1.85:1 matted) plus
Cinerama as well as all the anamorphic formats.
As I have said previously, you have yet to produce ANY source, let
alone an authoritative one, that excludes 1.85:1 from the category of
widescreen formats.
Ergo, by all universally accepted definitions by all the sources I have
found AS WELL AS the one you supplied, Countess qualifies as a
widescreen film. QED. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 64) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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If you want to learn the real meaning
of the term "wide screen, check out
this site:
American WideScreen Museum - provided as a public service by Martin Hart
Address:http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Sep 11, 2005 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 65) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote
> I do concede that wide screen has been
> used as a generic term for anything
> that isn't squareish..but it's a fairly
> use....
Blah, blah, blah
The original question was about whether the film
is widescreen compared to Chaplin's other movies.
Yeah, it's rectangular as opposed to the square frame
of every other Chaplin movie, so it's wider - widescreen.
Your talk is a bunch of mealy-mouthed mumbojumbo
typical of your attempt to weasel a a 'technical' victory in your
proclaimed war of words.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
> mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
> shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
>
> ___Ann Coulter
This is what passes for incisive wit among Schelptz and his
far-right brethen, folks!
"shouldn't be allowed to own pets"! Haw! Haw! Haw! >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 66) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> David Totheroh wrote:
>
> >From that site I discovered that all of the
> >following are refered to as "widescreen"
> >formats; 1.66:1 matted, 1.75:1 matted,
> >1.85:1 matted,
>
> With respect to the old 1.33 and 1.37
> ratios, none of which are used anymore
> and weren't used at the time of
> COUNTESS, you can say that that
> COUNTESS was "wide screen." I believe I have previously conceded that.
>
> But in reality, where every conventional
> 35mm is presented or shot in 1.85,
> the term wide screen is meaningless
> and misleading.
>
> COUNTESS is wide screen only with
> respect to TV.
And with respect to the descriptions included on the site YOU
volunteered.
>
> And you misrepresent the site, which
> is principally concerned with ~real~ widescreen processes such as
> Todd-A0,
> CinemaScope, Super Panavision etc.
I merely quoted directly from the site and misrepresented nothing. Just
because the site focuses on a few specific widescreen formats doesn't
change the fact that they refer to 1.85 as another of the widescreen
formats. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 67) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> Fred wrote:
>
> >This proves that the Director of
> >Photography chose to frame the shot
> >wide, giving more information on the
> >sides.
>
> How the DP frames the shot is an
> definitely an esthetic consideration.but in reality, with 1.85 or 1/37,
> the actual width
> of the frame "real estate" is the
> same, whereas an anamorphic lens
> compresses more information onto
> the same space, and a 65 mm frame
> is physically wider.
And a short focal length lens compresses more information onto the same
space than a longer focal length lens. Does that make wide angle shots,
regardless of how they are presented, widescreen? That's what your
uniquely personal definition would have us believe.
Besides, anamorphics use the same "frame "real estate"" as 1.85 and
1.37 too (unless shot on 65 or 70mm stock), so that doesn't distinguish
them from each other as you would misrepresent with your false
distinction.
>
> I do concede that wide screen has been
> used as a generic term for anything
> that isn't squareish..but it's a fairly
> useless definition when no theatrical
> film has been shot with the old ratios for 50 years or more.
>
> It's far more useful to say that COUNTESS was shot in 1,85 than
> it was Chaplin's "only widescreen
> movie." (Especially since the old
> guy had no choice but to shoot it
> that way)
Of course, it's more specific to indicate WHICH widescreen format a
film is shot/presented in, just as it would be more useful to refer to
a Chaplin film than it would be to talk about a comedy film. But that
in no way alters the FACT that it's still a comedy film. Likewise,
Countess IS a widescreen film, even though it's not Cinemascope, or
Todd-AO, or 2.35:1 or whatever other widescreen format you want to name
(except 1.85:1). >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 68) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Totheroh wrote:
>From that site I discovered that all of the
>following are refered to as "widescreen"
>formats; 1.66:1 matted, 1.75:1 matted,
>1.85:1 matted,
With respect to the old 1.33 and 1.37
ratios, none of which are used anymore
and weren't used at the time of
COUNTESS, you can say that that
COUNTESS was "wide screen." I believe I have previously conceded that.
But in reality, where every conventional
35mm is presented or shot in 1.85,
the term wide screen is meaningless
and misleading.
COUNTESS is wide screen only with
respect to TV.
And you misrepresent the site, which
is principally concerned with ~real~ widescreen processes such as
Todd-A0,
CinemaScope, Super Panavision etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 69) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fred wrote:
>This proves that the Director of
>Photography chose to frame the shot
>wide, giving more information on the
>sides.
How the DP frames the shot is an
definitely an esthetic consideration.but in reality, with 1.85 or 1/37,
the actual width
of the frame "real estate" is the
same, whereas an anamorphic lens
compresses more information onto
the same space, and a 65 mm frame
is physically wider.
I do concede that wide screen has been
used as a generic term for anything
that isn't squareish..but it's a fairly
useless definition when no theatrical
film has been shot with the old ratios for 50 years or more.
It's far more useful to say that COUNTESS was shot in 1,85 than
it was Chaplin's "only widescreen
movie." (Especially since the old
guy had no choice but to shoot it
that way)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jun 29, 2006 Posts: 141
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(Msg. 70) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:50:52 -0400, G-HELPS.DeleteThis@webtv.net (George Shelps)
wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>
>>This proves that the Director of
>>Photography chose to frame the shot
>>wide, giving more information on the
>>sides.
>
>How the DP frames the shot is an
>definitely an esthetic consideration.but in reality, with 1.85 or 1/37,
>the actual width
>of the frame "real estate" is the
>same, whereas an anamorphic lens
>compresses more information onto
>the same space, and a 65 mm frame
>is physically wider.
A frame of 35mm film is capable of holding the exact same amount of
information whether the image stored on it is anamorphic or not. So
the celluloid's information is a constant. But the information
reaching that celluloid is not constant. And in anything that's shot
with the expectation of a widescreen presentation, the horizontal
information is increased, whether through using a wider lens or
through squeezing the image.
>
>I do concede that wide screen has been
>used as a generic term for anything
>that isn't squareish..but it's a fairly
>useless definition when no theatrical
>film has been shot with the old ratios for 50 years or more.
It's a useless definition *except* in the context it was originally
used here, which was comparing the aspect ratio of Countess with the
aspect ratio of the rest of Chaplin's films. It's also non-useless
when discussing the aspect ratio of a home viewing presentation.
>
>It's far more useful to say that COUNTESS was shot in 1,85 than
>it was Chaplin's "only widescreen
>movie."
Not really, because the original poster wanted to know the general
aspect ratio, which is "widescreen" not how the aspect ratio was
achieved. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 71) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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bachusio wrote:
>it's rectangular as opposed to the square
>frame of every other Chaplin movie, so
>it's wider - widescreen.
Except the frame was never really square...square-ish perhaps.
As the Widescreen Museum website
indicates, the most meaningful use of
the term is for the anamorphic, wide
frame, or wide film processes.
>This is what passes for incisive wit
>among Schelptz and his far-right
>brethen, folks!
>"shouldn't be allowed to own pets"! Haw!
>Haw! Haw!
Glad you liked it, It was included to
see if I could lure you out of your
sewer. And it worked...haw haw!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 72) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:27 pm
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dtotheroh.TakeThisOut@aol.com (David Totheroh)
wrote:
>And a short focal length lens compresses
>more information onto the same space
>than a longer focal length lens.
Not in the same fashion as anamorphic
compression.
> Does that make wide angle shots,
>regardless of how they are presented,
>widescreen?
No
>That's what your uniquely personal
>definition would have us believe.
Wrong.
>Besides, anamorphics use the same
>"frame "real estate"" as 1.85 and 1.37
>too
Undecompressed, yes.
> (unless shot on 65 or 70mm stock), so
>that doesn't distinguish them from each
>other as you would misrepresent with
>your false distinction.
You have to be a fool to deny the
difference between scope and 1.85.
>But that in no way alters the FACT that
>it's still a comedy film. Likewise,
>Countess IS a widescreen film, even
>though it's not Cinemascope, or
>Todd-AO, or 2.35:1 or whatever other
>widescreen format you want to name
>(except 1.85:1).
It is wide screen only with reference
to dead aspect ratios and TV,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 886
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(Msg. 73) Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Totheroh wrote:
>>And you misrepresent the site, which
>>is principally concerned with ~real~
>>widescreen processes such as
>>Todd-A0, CinemaScope, Super
>>Panavision etc.
>I merely quoted directly from the site and
>misrepresented nothing. Just because
>the site focuses on a few specific
>widescreen formats doesn't change the
>fact that they refer to 1.85 as another of
>the widescreen formats.
As I said, you misrepresent the site. It is not devoted to "a few
specific widescreen
formats," but rather these formats
are its raison d'etre and are referenced
by the name of the site, "Widescreen
Museum."
The cropped 1.85 is an adaptation of
the old 1.33 or 1.37 frame to mimic
aspects of the real widescreen formats to which the site is devoted in
detail.
A COUNTESS FROM HONG KONG
was shot and presented in the standard
flat 35mm format of the era. It was
not in any sense widescreen as the
term is used on this definitive site.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mind trusting liberals with national security. Never
mind trusting them with raising kids. These people
shouldn't even be allowed to own pets.
___Ann Coulter >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 74) Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:40 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> dtotheroh.TakeThisOut@aol.com (David Totheroh)
> wrote:
>
>
> >And a short focal length lens compresses
> >more information onto the same space
> >than a longer focal length lens.
>
> Not in the same fashion as anamorphic
> compression.
Why not? Just because the anamorphic lens surface isn't a spherical
section like a 'regular' wide angle lens? The radius in the horizontal
plane is still shorter than it would be in a normal lens. Same physics,
same distortion of light.
>
>
> > Does that make wide angle shots,
> >regardless of how they are presented,
> >widescreen?
>
> No
Why not? Just because you say so? Please explain.
>
> >That's what your uniquely personal
> >definition would have us believe.
>
> Wrong.
HOW is it wrong? Can you explain how I have misapplied your definition?
>
> >Besides, anamorphics use the same
> >"frame "real estate"" as 1.85 and 1.37
> >too
>
> Undecompressed, yes.
What is "compressed"? Are there more silver halide grains per square
millimeter on anamorphic film stock? Or is the film merely exposed
through an axially distorted lens, effectively a horizontal wide angle
lens?
>
> > (unless shot on 65 or 70mm stock), so
> >that doesn't distinguish them from each
> >other as you would misrepresent with
> >your false distinction.
>
> You have to be a fool to deny the
> difference between scope and 1.85.
You'd have to be disingenuous to claim that's what I said. Of course
there's a difference, but that doesn't change the FACT that BOTH are
widescreen formats.
>
> >But that in no way alters the FACT that
> >it's still a comedy film. Likewise,
> >Countess IS a widescreen film, even
> >though it's not Cinemascope, or
> >Todd-AO, or 2.35:1 or whatever other
> >widescreen format you want to name
> >(except 1.85:1).
>
> It is wide screen only with reference
> to dead aspect ratios and TV,
And since the original question was asking about Chaplin films, then
the baseline reference for comparison IS precisely the aspect ratios of
the earliest 83 of his 84 films. >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 349
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(Msg. 75) Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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George Shelps wrote:
> David Totheroh wrote:
>
> >>It is wide screen only with reference
> >>to dead aspect ratios and TV,
>
> >And since the original question was
> >asking about Chaplin films, then the>
> >baseline reference for comparison IS
> >precisely the aspect ratios of the earliest
> >83 of his 84 films.
>
> But it's a still misleading to apply
> that term to a movie made in the mid-60s.
>
> COUNTESS is not a wide screen movie
> in any meaningful sense of that term. A
> wide screen movie is one shot in one of
> the number of processes highlighted
> on the site Widescreen Museum...Super
> Panavision, CinemaScope, Technirama,
> Todd-AO, Cinerama etc.
>
> The correct answer would have been
> to say that COUNTESS was shot in
> the conventional 1.85 35mm format
> of the day.
The correct answer to what? The original poster's question was "Is
there any place to purchase Chaplin DVDs in Letterbox or Widescreen
format so you see the whole picture? The few Chaplin DVDs I have
purchased or received as gifts are standard "Pan & Scan" format and so
have the sides cut off."
Obviously, there was a misunderstanding of what format ALL of Chaplin's
films EXCEPT Countess were shot and presented in. The reasonable answer
to that question is to let the poster know that what he was seeing in
the full 4:3 images was almost exactly the format in which they were
originally presented and that ONLY Countess would need to be "in
Letterbox or Widescreen format so you see the whole picture" because
only Countess, of all the Chaplin films being asked about, was shot in
a widescreen format.
But just as you have done with this post (why is it that you cut
instead of answered all of my questions about the similarities between
wide angle and anamorphic lenses?), you ignore the original question
and answer a conveniently replaced question of your own. Are straw man
arguments the only ones you are capable of winning? >> Stay informed about: Chaplin DVDs in letterbox format |
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