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Since: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 76) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:35 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 15, 3:59 pm, HelpMeCope <hoarse....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems everyone is apologizing nowadays for what happened long ago.
> Can't even buy Disney, Bugs Bunny or Popeye cartoons without
> disclaimers about racial stereotypes from those eras. It was wrong
> then and wrong now, we know that. NOW BACK OFF ALREADY.
I agree with others who have said that there ought to be more
discussion about the underlying historical issues involved.
I note that, Asian-American protests to the contrary, when the Old
Town Music Hall in El Segundo runs a Charlie Chan film the Saturday
night audiences are filled out with Asians--and I don't see these
Asians attending other films at the theater.
Likewise, when it was a hit radio show, black audiences were among the
fans of the "Amos 'n' Andy" show, and black comedian Scooey Mitchell
waged a campaign to have the TV series pulled out of the vaults in the
1970s.
It is easy to say "It was wrong then, it is wrong now," but this
is clearly an over-simplification. Racial and ethnic attitudes WERE
different then. The people of that day (the mainstream society, that
is) had virtually no awareness that there was anything wrong in their
attitudes. We HAVE come a long way. Still, I don't believe that
blackface, or ethnic jokes on stage were ever intended to be demeaning
in the way that "Whites Only" was in the rest of society. That
blackface and ethnic slurs in entertainment of decades ago reflect the
broader attitude of society at the time I have no doubt, however, and
for this reason they may be the best surviving accessible artifacts of
these sorts of attitudes of the past, and therefore may be valuable
instructional tools. Few, after all, will bother to exhume the old
"Jim Crow" laws and do the sort of in depth study the issue requires. |
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External
Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 77) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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bbirchard RemoveThis @earthlink.net wrote:
> I don't believe that
> blackface, or ethnic jokes on stage were ever intended to be demeaning
> in the way that "Whites Only" was in the rest of society.
I think this oversimplifies the issue. "Intention" is hard to pinpoint,
and as you say elsewhere, the real nightmare of racism is that for many
people it is largely unconscious.
But I don't see how you can avoid dealing with the way the simple-minded
"darkie" stereotype of the minstrel tradition promoted and reinforced a
view of blacks that justified their second-class status in the society.
People might not have made the connection consciously, and it was
obscured by the very real art of the blackface performers -- but the
connection was there.
The simple-minded "darkie" was just about the ONLY image of blacks
available in the broad popular culture, and even if whites didn't see
that as purposefully demeaning, blacks certainly knew what its
implications were.
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 78) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 25, 2:12 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
> constance.kuriy....TakeThisOut@ttu.edu wrote:
> > I don't see much comparison between calling an adult man "boy,"
> > which is manifestly condescending (affectionate or not) and wearing
> > blackface.
>
> A white man wearing blackface to portray Othello is different from a
> white man wearing blackface to portray a simple-minded "darkie" in a
> culture in which viewing blacks as children was part of a social regime
> in which they were treated as second-class citizens.
>
> Context is everything. People who see the American blackface tradition
> as wholly benign are either denying the context in which it served a
> particular social function or denying that the context is still relevant
> to our own time.
>
> If you can't see the connection between calling adult black males "boy"
> and bombarding the culture with child-like black stereotypes, I don't
> think you're looking hard enough.
>
> Mar de Cortes Baja
>
> www.mardecortesbaja.com<http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
My point is simply that all blackface performance does not involve
"child-like black stereotypes," and is not part of a cultural tendency
to degrade a specific group. If something occurs in a context of
racism,
that does not mean that it necessarily serves a racist purpose.
Performances of _Othello_ occurred in the same social context as
other blackface performances, but I doubt that they contributed to
racist attitudes. I liked your earlier post in which I believe you
said these
things had to be considered on an individual basis. In most cases,
it's not hard to distinguish admiring imitation from malicious
mockery.
Connie K. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 79) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
> constance.kuriyama RemoveThis @ttu.edu wrote:
>
> > I don't see much comparison between calling an adult man "boy,"
> > which is manifestly condescending (affectionate or not) and wearing
> > blackface.
>
> A white man wearing blackface to portray Othello is different from a
> white man wearing blackface to portray a simple-minded "darkie" in a
> culture in which viewing blacks as children was part of a social regime
> in which they were treated as second-class citizens.
>
> Context is everything. People who see the American blackface tradition
> as wholly benign are either denying the context in which it served a
> particular social function or denying that the context is still relevant
> to our own time.
You might take your own words a bit more to heart. And this black
perspective might inform and add a bit of subtlty to your views as
well.
http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF0204/Watkins/Watkins.html
For myself, in reading through your posts, what seems to be missing is
an appreciation for the subversive, satiric underpinnings of
minstrelsy. One of the more obvious associated examples would be the
Uncle Remus stories, collected as they were from the black oral folk
traditions. I think they have their Euro/Anglo analogy in troubadours
and especially court jesters. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 80) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:12 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Totheroh wrote:
> For myself, in reading through your posts, what seems to be missing is
> an appreciation for the subversive, satiric underpinnings of
> minstrelsy. One of the more obvious associated examples would be the
> Uncle Remus stories, collected as they were from the black oral folk
> traditions. I think they have their Euro/Anglo analogy in troubadours
> and especially court jesters.
Points well taken. In fact I do see the minstrel tradition as complex
and wonderful on many levels -- I just think it's dangerous to dismiss
the purposes it served in reinforcing institutional racism or to see
them as no longer relevant. My arguments have been against those who
think the time is past when we need to concern ourselves with such
things, and with those who think blacks disturbed by them should "just
get over it".
"The Merchant Of Venice" has great art in it -- it also anti-Semitic.
Any consideration of the play which fails to deal with both of those
facts is misguided.
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 81) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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constance.kuriyama.DeleteThis@ttu.edu wrote:
> In most cases,
> it's not hard to distinguish admiring imitation from malicious
> mockery.
When the second-class status of blacks is predicated on the assumption
that they are childlike by nature, not to be trusted with positions of
responsibility or with the right to vote and on whom higher education is
wasted, then all representations of them in the culture as childlike
creatures serve the purposes of the institutionalized racism by
reinforcing the assumption which justifies it.
The representations need not be consciously mocking or malicious to do
this. Performances of "Othello" were relatively rare in the popular
culture -- the stereotype of the simple-minded "darkie" was ubiquitous .
.. . it was, indeed, the central image of blacks presented in mainstream
popular culture. There was a social logic behind this which went far
beyond the realm of entertainment or humor or the individual choices of
artists.
This is not to say that the issue isn't nuanced, or that the stereotypes
couldn't be subverted from within the conventions -- a good case in
point being the Stepin Fetchit character in John Ford's "The Sun Shines
Bright".
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 82) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 25, 10:12 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote:
> David Totheroh wrote:
> > For myself, in reading through your posts, what seems to be missing is
> > an appreciation for the subversive, satiric underpinnings of
> > minstrelsy. One of the more obvious associated examples would be the
> > Uncle Remus stories, collected as they were from the black oral folk
> > traditions. I think they have their Euro/Anglo analogy in troubadours
> > and especially court jesters.
>
> Points well taken. In fact I do see the minstrel tradition as complex
> and wonderful on many levels -- I just think it's dangerous to dismiss
> the purposes it served in reinforcing institutional racism or to see
> them as no longer relevant. My arguments have been against those who
> think the time is past when we need to concern ourselves with such
> things, and with those who think blacks disturbed by them should "just
> get over it".
>
> "The Merchant Of Venice" has great art in it -- it also anti-Semitic.
> Any consideration of the play which fails to deal with both of those
> facts is misguided.
Just as any discussion of the minstrel show 'childlike/simple'
personna that fails to acknowledge the clever, subversive, shrewd
survival characteristics of that personna (as all of your posts in
this thread to date have done as far as I can tell), is equally
misguided and incomplete. Especially since those aspects predate the
more opressive uses of that personna, and indeed were created and
imbued into that personna by the very minorities you seem so keen to
protect from it. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 83) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:23 am
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Totheroh wrote:
> Just as any discussion of the minstrel show 'childlike/simple'
> personna that fails to acknowledge the clever, subversive, shrewd
> survival characteristics of that personna (as all of your posts in
> this thread to date have done as far as I can tell), is equally
> misguided and incomplete. Especially since those aspects predate the
> more opressive uses of that personna, and indeed were created and
> imbued into that personna by the very minorities you seem so keen to
> protect from it.
I have never suggested that anyone be "protected" from anything. I was
responding very specifically to the suggestion that the oppressive
nature of black stereotypes need no longer be discussed or deplored --
that it's part of a past that people today need to "get over", that we
can ignore the negative aspects of the minstrel tradition and just enjoy
it on its own terms. I think that sort of historical amnesia is
premature and dangerous.
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 84) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 26, 1:23 am, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
> David Totheroh wrote:
> > Just as any discussion of the minstrel show 'childlike/simple'
> > personna that fails to acknowledge the clever, subversive, shrewd
> > survival characteristics of that personna (as all of your posts in
> > this thread to date have done as far as I can tell), is equally
> > misguided and incomplete. Especially since those aspects predate the
> > more opressive uses of that personna, and indeed were created and
> > imbued into that personna by the very minorities you seem so keen to
> > protect from it.
>
> I have never suggested that anyone be "protected" from anything. I was
> responding very specifically to the suggestion that the oppressive
> nature of black stereotypes need no longer be discussed or deplored --
> that it's part of a past that people today need to "get over", that we
> can ignore the negative aspects of the minstrel tradition and just enjoy
> it on its own terms. I think that sort of historical amnesia is
> premature and dangerous.
No more so than one that fails to acknowledge the ingenious,
subversive historic beginnings of that tradition. In fact I would
argue that failing to give blacks credit for those aspects of the
minstrel tradition just might be evidence of the paternalistic lack of
real awareness that blacks responded to and spoofed when the minstrel
personna was created in the first place. In short, the same kind of
attitude that could motivate the blues lyric cited in Watkins' piece:
Got one mind for white folks to see,
'nother for what I know is me;
he don't know, he don't know my mind.
Definitely worth thinking about if you ask me. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 85) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:19 am
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Totheroh wrote:
> On Oct 26, 1:23 am, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS... DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:
>>I have never suggested that anyone be "protected" from anything. I was
>>responding very specifically to the suggestion that the oppressive
>>nature of black stereotypes need no longer be discussed or deplored --
>>that it's part of a past that people today need to "get over", that we
>>can ignore the negative aspects of the minstrel tradition and just enjoy
>>it on its own terms. I think that sort of historical amnesia is
>>premature and dangerous.
>
> No more so than one that fails to acknowledge the ingenious,
> subversive historic beginnings of that tradition. In fact I would
> argue that failing to give blacks credit for those aspects of the
> minstrel tradition just might be evidence of the paternalistic lack of
> real awareness that blacks responded to and spoofed when the minstrel
> personna was created in the first place. In short, the same kind of
> attitude that could motivate the blues lyric cited in Watkins' piece:
>
> Got one mind for white folks to see,
> 'nother for what I know is me;
> he don't know, he don't know my mind.
>
> Definitely worth thinking about if you ask me.
Indeed.
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 86) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:15 am
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On Oct 26, 6:52 am, G-HE... RemoveThis @webtv.net (George Shelps) wrote:
> Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
> >I
> >have never suggested that anyone
> >be"protected" from anything. I was
> >responding very specifically to the
> >suggestion that the oppressive nature of
> >black stereotypes need no longer be
> >discussed or deplored -- that it's part of a
> >past that people today need to "get
> >over", that we can ignore the negative
> >aspects of the minstrel tradition and just
> >enjoy it on its own terms. I think that sort
> >of historical amnesia is premature and
> >dangerous.
>
> Life is replete with injustice. To say that
> at times you have to transcend indignation and outrage and move on with
> life is not
> to minimize or forget the injustice.
>
> Beyond the obvious political ends served
> by race-baiting, the focus on racial
> injustice as the zenith of all social evil
> seems misplaced.
This from the same guy who said only yesterday about David Duke's non-
racial beliefs: "All nullified by his racial attitudes."
Is there anything you REALLY believe in, ...other than expediency? >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 886
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(Msg. 87) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:52 am
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Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
>I
>have never suggested that anyone
>be"protected" from anything. I was
>responding very specifically to the
>suggestion that the oppressive nature of
>black stereotypes need no longer be
>discussed or deplored -- that it's part of a
>past that people today need to "get
>over", that we can ignore the negative
>aspects of the minstrel tradition and just
>enjoy it on its own terms. I think that sort
>of historical amnesia is premature and
>dangerous.
Life is replete with injustice. To say that
at times you have to transcend indignation and outrage and move on with
life is not
to minimize or forget the injustice.
Beyond the obvious political ends served
by race-baiting, the focus on racial
injustice as the zenith of all social evil
seems misplaced. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 88) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 26, 10:44 am, G-HE....DeleteThis@webtv.net (George Shelps) wrote:
> Dsvif Totheroh wrote:
> >>Life is replete with injustice. To say
> >>that at times you have to transcend
> >>indignation and outrage and move on
> >>with life is not
> >>to minimize or forget the injustice.
> >>Beyond the obvious political ends
> >>served by race-baiting, the focus on
> >>racial injustice as the zenith of all social
> >>evil seems misplaced.
> >This from the same guy who said only
> >yesterday about David Duke's non- racial
> >beliefs: "All nullified by his racial
> >attitudes."
> >Is there anything you REALLY believe in,
> >..other than expediency?
>
> I see your Contradiction Gestapo is still ar work.
>
> I never said Dukes's racial views nullify
> the validity of his other beliefs,
Oh come on George. That's EXACTLY what you said. It's a direct quote,
in context and black and white from your post time stamped Thu, 25 Oct
2007 00:05:25 -0400. Are you really THAT out of touch with reality?
> I simply
> don't want to be associated with a true
> racist simply because he says he holds some similar political views.
That's certainly understandable, but it doesn't change the facts.
>
> But you are attempting to tar me and smear me by trying to make that
> association--and thus you remain a despicable smear-monger and
> race-baiter.
Attempting? I will admit you're doing a far better job with your own
words than I could ever hope to do. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: Jun 03, 2007
Posts: 69
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(Msg. 89) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:04 pm
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On Oct 26, 12:50 pm, Miss Glamour <Miss_Glamo....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Approaching the winter season the question of the day is:
> How to wear miniskirts in cold weather without freezing?
>
> Miniskirts have been young women's trends since the 1950s. Miniskirts
> come in assorted styles such as leather, denim, rayon, tweed and
> others. They can be rugged, elegant, funky and preppy. Miniskirts are
> very popular between spring and fall seasons. However, some ladies
> insist on being trendy in the dead of winter. Here are some techniques
> to keep trendy and warm.
> Wear leggings that go with the outfits. For seude and denim
> miniskirts, try nude and colored leggings. For black leather skirts
> and tweed, wear colored leggings or fishnets. Get a little frisky and
> sport patterned leggings. Stores that sell variety of miniskirts and
> leggings selling for prices from $15-$200. Seude and Leather skirts
> are also avaialble at many outlet stores.
> Add some spandex or body suits to your minis. These provide more
> sheik, but be aware of the sweat factor. Coming in from the cold and
> going back out might get the clothes a little gamey over time. A super
> style could be a patterned, tweed skirt with spandex and flats, or
> some casual, tennis shoes.
> You can do plain girly-cool with elevated socks. Extra-long, soccer
> socks athletic stores would work nicely. With these, you can wear
> many footwear with athletic-style heels.
> Others would even resort to wearing thin-kits. That style only works
> if it absolutely goes with the outfit. Usually, black and white are
> the only colors that are safe to try. Be careful to only stick with
> thin-kits. Avoid wearing thick, thermal underwear with your miniskirt.
> It may look tacky.
> No one likes to freeze while being in style. At least, these tips can
> help stay looking cool and being warm.
>
> Kiss kiss,
> Miss Glamour
Nice try, George. The miniskirt stuff only means your slip's showing
that much more. >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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Since: May 20, 2007
Posts: 89
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(Msg. 90) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:19 pm
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George Shelps wrote:
> Beyond the obvious political ends served
> by race-baiting, the focus on racial
> injustice as the zenith of all social evil
> seems misplaced.
It's hard to imagine any social evil which has had more consistently
disastrous consequences for civilization over the years. Seems like
something one should pay the closest possible attention to.
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog> >> Stay informed about: EW JAZZ SINGER DVD REVIEW |
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