Q about Chaplin music

"D P M" (forbidden_zone@ntlworld.com) writes:
> Hi
>
> Just wondering if anyone can help me out with some info.
>
> In the 1975 biopic, "The Gentleman Tramp", towards the end of the film we
> see the elderly Charlie in his home in Switzerland listening to music on one
> of those big old reel-to-reel tape recorders. He begins singing along to
> the tune, the lyrics he sings go something like "...but I ain't, I'm only a
> little bit faint" before his voice gives out when he tries to reach a high
> note. He then notes that "My mother used to sing this to me".
>
> The same melody (without words) is used in the soundtrack to the 1970s
> reissue of his silent short "Pay Day".
>
> Does anybody know anything more about this particular piece of music, or
> have the full lyrics? I'm very curious!
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Dave

Phil may have much more to say about this. I do know that it's an old
music hall song. Chaplin drew on music hall and other populaar songs,
as well as classical music, for his scores, as well as composing
his own music.

Connie K.



--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

On 9 Oct 2005 19:16:11 GMT, do481 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Constance Kuriyama)
wrote:

>
>"D P M" (forbidden_zone@ntlworld.com) writes:
>> Hi
>>
>> Just wondering if anyone can help me out with some info.
>>
>> In the 1975 biopic, "The Gentleman Tramp", towards the end of the film we
>> see the elderly Charlie in his home in Switzerland listening to music on one
>> of those big old reel-to-reel tape recorders. He begins singing along to
>> the tune, the lyrics he sings go something like "...but I ain't, I'm only a
>> little bit faint" before his voice gives out when he tries to reach a high
>> note. He then notes that "My mother used to sing this to me".
>>
>> The same melody (without words) is used in the soundtrack to the 1970s
>> reissue of his silent short "Pay Day".
>>
>> Does anybody know anything more about this particular piece of music, or
>> have the full lyrics? I'm very curious!
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Dave
>
>Phil may have much more to say about this. I do know that it's an old
>music hall song. Chaplin drew on music hall and other populaar songs,
>as well as classical music, for his scores, as well as composing
>his own music.
>
>Connie K.

According to Kenneth Lynn, it was indeed a music hall song called "I'm a Little
Bit Faint". I'm having a deja vu. Didn't we talk about this years ago?

Phil
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

I've been reading this group's postings for a while, but was afraid to
start writing. I was so excited to see people here whose names I
recognized! (Constance Kuriyama, your "Chaplin's Impure Comedy: The
Art of Survival" - which I thoroughly appreciated - was one of the
first scholarly works I read on Chaplin. And, David Totheroh, naturally
your name was familiar!) In any case, I just thought I'd add that I
think the name of this song is actually "The Gentle Maiden" - at least
according to Vance's "Genius of the Cinema." From what I've heard
about Kenneth Lynn and his book, I wouldn't quickly accept anything he
said as the truth, necessarily. A quick check on the internet (and
some horrible-sounding midi files) substantiates Vance's claim that the
song is "The Gentle Maiden," an Irish folk song. However, is it
possible that different lyrics were sung to the same melody in the
music halls?
Anyhow, sorry to prolong this discussion, since evidently it's all been
covered before. Although, I'll admit, I've been amused by some of the
Shelps vs. Totheroh/Kuriyama debates, I, too, would love to read some
discussion of the films or of the topics addressed at the Chaplin
conference!
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

On 10 Oct 2005 13:03:06 -0700, "Aneu Onomatos" <rrgenauer.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>I've been reading this group's postings for a while, but was afraid to
>start writing. I was so excited to see people here whose names I
>recognized! (Constance Kuriyama, your "Chaplin's Impure Comedy: The
>Art of Survival" - which I thoroughly appreciated - was one of the
>first scholarly works I read on Chaplin. And, David Totheroh, naturally
>your name was familiar!) In any case, I just thought I'd add that I
>think the name of this song is actually "The Gentle Maiden" - at least
>according to Vance's "Genius of the Cinema." From what I've heard
>about Kenneth Lynn and his book, I wouldn't quickly accept anything he
>said as the truth, necessarily. A quick check on the internet (and
>some horrible-sounding midi files) substantiates Vance's claim that the
>song is "The Gentle Maiden," an Irish folk song. However, is it
>possible that different lyrics were sung to the same melody in the
>music halls?
>Anyhow, sorry to prolong this discussion, since evidently it's all been
>covered before. Although, I'll admit, I've been amused by some of the
>Shelps vs. Totheroh/Kuriyama debates, I, too, would love to read some
>discussion of the films or of the topics addressed at the Chaplin
>conference!


Thanks a lot for pointing that out. I didn't connect Jeff's mention of the tune
in his book to that particular song, but now that I've heard a midi of it, it
seems quite different from the Chaplin version. Really only the first line is
similar. Can you point me to a midi that sounds more like the tune we know?

Phil
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

"Feuillade" (Feuillade@aol.com) writes:
> Phil P. writes:
>
>> According to Kenneth Lynn, it was indeed
>> a music hall song called "I'm a Little Bit
>> Faint". I'm having a deja vu. Didn't we talk
>> about this years ago?
>
> We've talked about everything on this newsgroup years ago. That's one
> of the problems -- we're the same people rehashing the same arguments
> over and over and over without saying anything different.
>
> Tom Moran

Some repetition is inevitable because new people will be posting who
will ask some of the same questions. One of the purposes of this newsgroup
is to answer those questions.

But there are many topics about Chaplin that we haven't discussed,
partly because of the limitations of newsgroup posting. That became
quite clear during the Chaplin conference last summer, where the
only topic that overlapped with some of our discussions was "Chaplin
and Sentimentality"--not the strongest offering on the program.

We could do much better, though we have pursued many worthwhile
topics, Overall we've devoted for more attention to arguing about
Chaplin's politics than to discussing his films, which is one of
the main reasons why the same arguments keep being repeated.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

Aneu Onomatos wrote:

> And from Vance:
> "In 1972 Chaplin composed a score for Pay Day with Eric James for
> theatrical reissue. The music was all original save "The Gentle
> Maiden," a tune his mother used to sing to him when he was young, which
> Chaplin was intent on using in his own arrangement, and which replaced
> the film's direct cue of "Sweet Adeline." (page 128)


I wonder if Chaplin incorporated any bits of his father's music hall
standards into his film scores, maybe as an homage. I think the sheet
music for a couple of Sr.'s songs appear in MY LIFE IN PICTURES, so he
had the music handy if he wanted it.



--Shush--
(Welcome to the group!)
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

Aneu Onomatos wrote:

> I've been reading this group's postings
> for a while, but was afraid to start writing.

A wise move on your part. :)

Congratulations on your first post. We badly need new blood around
here. Most of our blood is already on the walls.

Tom Moran
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

Feuillade wrote:
> Aneu Onomatos wrote:
>
> > I've been reading this group's postings
> > for a while, but was afraid to start writing.
>
> A wise move on your part. :)
>
> Congratulations on your first post. We badly need new blood around
> here. Most of our blood is already on the walls.
>

Ain't it the truth! New blood is always welcome.

Richard Carnahan
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

How encouraging! I suppose I shall provide a fresh coat of paint?
Truthfully, it would be a pleasure. My cursor must have hung over the
"Post Reply" button for an eternity before I finally realized how I
could benefit from discussion with people who know much more and have
much more practice thinking than I do!

I was just wondering, Connie, in what context did Robinson show that
slide you mentioned? From what you say, it certainly does sound like a
conscious tribute to Chaplin's father. But, doesn't the pantomime also
simply fall in line with Chaplin's morbid and ironic sense of humor?
The joke in the nonsense song's story in some way seems to me to be
very close in nature to the humor that drives Chaplin to feign his own
death after rejecting the existence of a god, or the endings to "A
Woman of Paris" and even the "Burlesque on Carmen." I suppose they all
underline the same sense of futility that is evident in so many of
Chaplin's comedies - the disrupted dream sequences, the trademark
Chaplin endings, etc. But, I've a suspicion that these ungodly hours
have forced me down a convoluted path to the most obvious of
conclusions. Before I make a greater fool of myself, I will stop.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

"Aneu Onomatos" (rrgenauer@gmail.com) writes:
> I've been reading this group's postings for a while, but was afraid to
> start writing. I was so excited to see people here whose names I
> recognized! (Constance Kuriyama, your "Chaplin's Impure Comedy: The
> Art of Survival" - which I thoroughly appreciated - was one of the
> first scholarly works I read on Chaplin.


Thank you, Aneu. That piece was particularly hard to write, so I'm
glad to hear that someone benefited from it.


> And, David Totheroh, naturally
> your name was familiar!) In any case, I just thought I'd add that I
> think the name of this song is actually "The Gentle Maiden" - at least
> according to Vance's "Genius of the Cinema." From what I've heard
> about Kenneth Lynn and his book, I wouldn't quickly accept anything he
> said as the truth, necessarily.

Wise move.


> A quick check on the internet (and
> some horrible-sounding midi files) substantiates Vance's claim that the
> song is "The Gentle Maiden," an Irish folk song. However, is it
> possible that different lyrics were sung to the same melody in the
> music halls?
> Anyhow, sorry to prolong this discussion, since evidently it's all been
> covered before. Although, I'll admit, I've been amused by some of the
> Shelps vs. Totheroh/Kuriyama debates, I, too, would love to read some
> discussion of the films or of the topics addressed at the Chaplin
> conference.

It appears that there's more to say even about this song. I'm glad
someone brought it up.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

"Shush" (shushfilmseznospam@yahoo.com) writes:
> Aneu Onomatos wrote:
>
>> And from Vance:
>> "In 1972 Chaplin composed a score for Pay Day with Eric James for
>> theatrical reissue. The music was all original save "The Gentle
>> Maiden," a tune his mother used to sing to him when he was young, which
>> Chaplin was intent on using in his own arrangement, and which replaced
>> the film's direct cue of "Sweet Adeline." (page 128)
>
>
> I wonder if Chaplin incorporated any bits of his father's music hall
> standards into his film scores, maybe as an homage. I think the sheet
> music for a couple of Sr.'s songs appear in MY LIFE IN PICTURES, so he
> had the music handy if he wanted it.
>
>
>
> --Shush--
> (Welcome to the group!)

In fact one of the most famous bits in his films is based on one of his
father's songs--but not the music.

The pantomime he does to the tune of "Titina" in _Modern Times_ is based
on one of his father's songs called "The Girl Was Young and Pretty."
There's a plate of the cover of it in a Russian book on Chaplin by G.A.
Avenarius. The pictures on the cover illustrate the story of a fat
older man inviting a pretty young girl to join him in a hansom cab.

David Robinson had a slide of the cover which he showed during the
conference. It had been given to him by a Russian acquaintance, but
as he suspected, that one had been modified to make the man in one
picture look more like the Tramp. Robinson did not mention the connection
to _Modern Times_ during his presentation, though when I brought it up
during tea break he obviously was aware of it.

As far as I know I'm the only Chaplin scholar who has seen this plate.
The book was in the Texas Tech library, and is now checked out to me.

I would consider the pantomime and "nonsense song" a definite salute
to Chaplin's father, and a particularly grand one.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

i wunda wot kinda muzic Chaplin wuz tinking uf whin he knoked fat
ladeez in water fowntains an kicked old men in da face.
wot a ballet danzer huh?

Super Stupid
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music 

"Aneu Onomatos" (rrgenauer@gmail.com) writes:
> How encouraging! I suppose I shall provide a fresh coat of paint?
> Truthfully, it would be a pleasure. My cursor must have hung over the
> "Post Reply" button for an eternity before I finally realized how I
> could benefit from discussion with people who know much more and have
> much more practice thinking than I do!
>
> I was just wondering, Connie, in what context did Robinson show that
> slide you mentioned? From what you say, it certainly does sound like a
> conscious tribute to Chaplin's father. But, doesn't the pantomime also
> simply fall in line with Chaplin's morbid and ironic sense of humor?
> The joke in the nonsense song's story in some way seems to me to be
> very close in nature to the humor that drives Chaplin to feign his own
> death after rejecting the existence of a god, or the endings to "A
> Woman of Paris" and even the "Burlesque on Carmen." I suppose they all
> underline the same sense of futility that is evident in so many of
> Chaplin's comedies - the disrupted dream sequences, the trademark
> Chaplin endings, etc. But, I've a suspicion that these ungodly hours
> have forced me down a convoluted path to the most obvious of
> conclusions. Before I make a greater fool of myself, I will stop.

The context was an overview of Chaplin's Music Hall background,
and of performers who may have influenced him at least slightly.

Those of you who are interested in the Chaplin conference can
check out the BFI website at www.bfi.org.uk. They have the conference
schedule posted there as well as a number of abstracts of the papers
presented.

The song reflects a certain cynicism about male-female relationships,
especially when it includes the pawnbroker verse, and I suppose
Chaplin had plenty of reason for that, but this is also a traditional
element in comedy, so perhaps it's not all that personal.

I checked out the Midi file, but the way. It has about eight notes
in common with Chaplin's song; the rest seems different. And the
bit of the lyrics he sings in _Gentleman Tramp_ don't sound like they
belong to asong called "The Gentle Maiden." "The Tipsy Maiden" would be
more like it. If the Irish song was the source of the music hall
number, it was greatly modified.

Connie K.
--
"To hell with the pillow in the background. It's a good scene, and that's
more important." Chaplin, Interview with Richard Meryman, 1966.
 >> Stay informed about: Q about Chaplin music