short shotgun for eng/doc work

"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt RemoveThis @nv.net> wrote in message
news:1064770931.491924@nnrp1.phx1.gblx.net...
> shooter wrote:
> >
> > Doing more doc/eng style work. I have an ME66 Senn. It does a pretty
> > good job.

Why to upgrade if you are happy with the 66,just add some nice hyper cardio
for interior shots,
the other way is to trade the me for 416 and get another short mike with
the time
if you have only one mike ,I was no thinking about something that not have
416 on it

--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland

>
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

I'm going to suggest that the new Sanken CS-1 will be ideal
for the sort of work you define.

I've had a short listen to one and judge that it has quite a wide
and usable angle of acceptance (more like a cardioid) certainly
wider that what I normally use which AKG CK69 capsules with the
460 pre-amp module (I use the short shotgun capsule without the
passive extension piece)- I have 3 of them.

The CS-1 is only 183 mm long, is very light and makes for a smaller
windshield as well, and if you use the K-Tek K-SM mount, you can adapt
it for use in a Rycote winshield by buying the K-WA accessory.

Additionally the CS-1 is a great buy at around $700 compared with
andy other short shotgun mike.

Hope this helps

Mike Westgate AMPS
www.mikewestgatesound.webnz.co.nz
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

shooter wrote:

> Doing more doc/eng style work. I have an ME66 Senn. It does a pretty
> good job. What would you recommend as an upgrade? I'm looking at
> environments where 3 to 6 people are gathered around loosely in a
> group talking, with a fair amount of ambient noise. Need a fair amount
> of headroom for different camera angles. I don't think Hypercardioid
> is the way to go with high ambient noise and poor proximity but I
> could be wrong. Also, I'm not prepared to take a leap into high dollar
> options like a Schoeps. Thinking 416 or one of the Sankens. Will I get
> an appreciable gain in quality and reach over my ME66? All your
> collective help is appreciated, thanks.

If I can assume you'll be working indoors, I would not recommend the 416
as its off axis response will kill you from 700Hz down (it becomes
omnidirectional at the low end)

When working indoors, most noise is reflective, not ambient. With the
possible exception of the Sankens, shotgun mics perform very poorly in
acoustic spaces with multiple reflections.

The Sanken CS3e will perform much better than either Sennheiser, and the
CS1 would be my choise if you insist on a shotgun style mic. However,
the best way to choose your mic type is to start by considering, from
the microphone's position, from which direction(s) the noise sources are
coming, and compare them to the polar patterns of each mic type, then
specific mic models - taking into account the off-axis frquency response
of each model.

That may sound like a lot of work* but, once you've purchased your mics
and get to know them, it will be much easier to select the best tool for
each situation.

* It can be difficult to find reliable polar patterns and freq. response
graphs from some manufacturers. Many only print a theoretical graph on
their literature showing only on axis response and patterns for only a
couple of frequencies. However some manufacturers provide actual graphs
supplied with each microphone. Sanken's literature shows seven polar
frequency patterns and three response graphs (on axis, 90 degrees, 180
degrees).

I hope this helps, rather than further confusing you.

Marty Atias
ATS Communications
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

>...It can be difficult to find reliable polar patterns and freq. response
> graphs from some manufacturers...
>
> Marty Atias
> ATS Communications

I agree that the polar pattern graphs do not communicate very well the
rejection characteristics of the Sanken CS mics. The difference you notice
by listening to them (compared to traditional shotgun mics) is more than you
might expect from just comparing the graphs.

Glen Trew
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

I would also suggest the possibility of using a boundary (PZM) mic on the table
where these people are grouped. This only for the reason that their bodies
might block the sources of noise, and that it would pick them all up if they
are circled around a table. You can even conceal it with a tablecloth, or
behind a phone or whatever.
Hope this helps.
TOM
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

Thanks everybody for your input, very helpful. I think the Sanken
sounds about right. The groups and locations I'm talking about vary
widely. But what they have in common is 3 to 6 people gathered around
loosely, usually standing, sometimes walking. And there is always
uncontrolled noise in the BG. This can be factory, shopping mall,
office, testing lab, whatever. The common denominator is some
uncontrolled BG noise and random unscripted dialog from some members
of the group.
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

>
>Doing more doc/eng style work. I have an ME66 Senn. It does a pretty
>good job. What would you recommend as an upgrade? I'm looking at
>environments where 3 to 6 people are gathered around loosely in a
>group talking, with a fair amount of ambient noise. Need a fair amount
>of headroom for different camera angles. I don't think Hypercardioid
>is the way to go with high ambient noise and poor proximity but I
>could be wrong. Also, I'm not prepared to take a leap into high dollar
>options like a Schoeps. Thinking 416 or one of the Sankens. Will I get
>an appreciable gain in quality and reach over my ME66? All your
>collective help is appreciated, thanks.
>
>

There's a reason that the Schoeps CMC6/41 is high dollar.

It works better than just about any other choice that you could make for a
"short shotgun", especially indoors.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

Richard Kuschel wrote:

>>Doing more doc/eng style work. I have an ME66 Senn. It does a pretty
>>good job. What would you recommend as an upgrade? I'm looking at
>>environments where 3 to 6 people are gathered around loosely in a
>>group talking, with a fair amount of ambient noise. Need a fair amount
>>of headroom for different camera angles. I don't think Hypercardioid
>>is the way to go with high ambient noise and poor proximity but I
>>could be wrong. Also, I'm not prepared to take a leap into high dollar
>>options like a Schoeps. Thinking 416 or one of the Sankens. Will I get
>>an appreciable gain in quality and reach over my ME66? All your
>>collective help is appreciated, thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
> There's a reason that the Schoeps CMC6/41 is high dollar.
>
> It works better than just about any other choice that you could make for a
> "short shotgun", especially indoors.
> Richard H. Kuschel
> "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty


For the sake of accuracy, please refrain from referring to any Schoeps
as a "shotgun" mic. They make beautiful omni's, cardioids, and
hypercardioids, but no shotgun mics.

Marty Atias
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

>
>
> For the sake of accuracy, please refrain from referring to any Schoeps
> as a "shotgun" mic. They make beautiful omni's, cardioids, and
> hypercardioids, but no shotgun mics.
>
> Marty Atias
>
>

Yes nanny. ;-)
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

Richard Kuschel wrote:

>>Doing more doc/eng style work. I have an ME66 Senn. It does a pretty
>>good job. What would you recommend as an upgrade? I'm looking at
>>environments where 3 to 6 people are gathered around loosely in a
>>group talking, with a fair amount of ambient noise. Need a fair amount
>>of headroom for different camera angles. I don't think Hypercardioid
>>is the way to go with high ambient noise and poor proximity but I
>>could be wrong. Also, I'm not prepared to take a leap into high dollar
>>options like a Schoeps. Thinking 416 or one of the Sankens. Will I get
>>an appreciable gain in quality and reach over my ME66? All your
>>collective help is appreciated, thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
> There's a reason that the Schoeps CMC6/41 is high dollar.
>
> It works better than just about any other choice that you could make for a
> "short shotgun", especially indoors.
> Richard H. Kuschel
> "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

I must insist that you refrain from referring to any Schoeps as a
"shotgun" mic. They make beautiful omni's, cardioids, and
hypercardioids, but no shotgun mics.

Marty Atias
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

"Ty Ford" <nottford DeleteThis @jagunet.com> wrote in message
news:nottford.1415481897G@news.jagunet.com...
> In Article <bzOeb.5390$3S.4994@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Marty
> <Marty DeleteThis @atscomms.com> wrote:
>
> >> It works better than just about any other choice that you could make
for a
> >> "short shotgun", especially indoors.
> >> Richard H. Kuschel
> >> "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
> >
> >I must insist that you refrain from referring to any Schoeps as a
> >"shotgun" mic. They make beautiful omni's, cardioids, and
> >hypercardioids, but no shotgun mics.
> >
> >Marty Atias
>
>
> I insist on Marty's insistance!
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
There is a lot of insistance going on in this free-for-all forum. Shotgun
shotgun shotgun shotgun 12 ga. .410 ga. Browning Winchester. So there.

Steve King
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

Although I'm anxious to hear the CS-1, I agree that the Schoeps
CMC6-41 remains the best choice for interior work. It's still the
warmest, most intimate sounding mic I have ever heard for dialogue.
You will clearly notice the difference between the ME64/66 and the
Schoeps. Leaps and bounds.

Tom Beach
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work 

> > It works better than just about any other choice that you could make for
a
> > "short shotgun", especially indoors.
> > Richard H. Kuschel
> > "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

It works better than just about any other choice you could make for a"short
shotgun",especially 7-11 indoors ;-)


--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
I canna change the guns low in America
 >> Stay informed about: short shotgun for eng/doc work